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What It's Going to take...

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by KY5U, Aug 11, 2005.

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  1. K6FAF

    K6FAF Guest

    Just some FYI:

    Since 11.39 PST I have been monitoring the Hurricane Watch Net on 14.325.0.
    Being only lightly affiliated to ARES/RACES because of my unreliable work schedule, I can only say one thing fro EVERYBODY here:
    The Hurricane Network is working just great!
    Our hobby and related services to the community are NOT dead or going to be. If you listen to the coordinators and the EOCs, you realize this service is alive and well.
    And, nobody there seems to give a ,,,, about a license class and/or ,,,,they just do their job, and that very well, to my understanding.
    However, there was a lot of tuning, when I thought that those people's finals should pop, and a lot of key paddling that I do not see a reason for. Because everything was forwarded without problem. Because there were a lot of stations available with power backup in case of powerloss. Because there is an ubandance of volunteers, out of all classes.

    Let us include the people still in the affected area in our prayers, and also our hams at the EOCs riding it out as well as the other hams staying put on their own reasons!
    There are HAMs in the University Hospital in New Orleans and also in firestations that need our MENTAL support, NOW!
    But , please, do not interfere with the traffic on 14.325.0, go to 14265.0 if you want to help, donate or look for a connection after the disaster happened.

    Ham Radio as a Service is not DEAD at all!

    73s de k6faf, Hans
    I hear the control stations and the reporting stations quite well.....none under 55...


    Stations from as far away as VE and CA took over a relais situation to get the info packed and transfer it to our "Hurricane Watch Center".

    I am impressed.
     
  2. KD5NCO

    KD5NCO Ham Member QRZ Page

    N0KLU

    Other than N0PU and one or two others, the reason you will not see any action on that idea (I have been suggesting the same thing for 3 years) is that for all their bluster, they (the vocal pro-code "ARS is gone to hell in a hand basket" crowd) seem to be happy sitting back and sniping rather then take any personal responsibility and action.

    There is not one thing in the charter of the VEC and question pool committee to prevent what you propose except the volunteers to write and validate the questions and the volunteers to maintain the data base.

    The VECs could care less how many questions are in the pool. They just have to randomly pick X amount from each subject area to total 35 or 50. I see that there are some 600 questions already in the Extra exam pool...much easier to study for the test, then try to memorize them IMO! If I was an Advanced or Extra I would note to the question pool committee that there are entire section that can be eliminated and the void filled with relevant material. What is the point of memorizing all the questions relating to Amateur privileges on each of the bands by license class? Is not having a current band plan chart on the shack wall as important or more so then a log book?

    Point is, if there is any notion of dumbed down test then it is the Amateur population who failed to be part of the formation of the tests.

    And the folks who make money on exam books, and theory teaching, might have mixed feelings, but I think in the long haul they make money. I doubt there would be a strong fight from them.  

    So who really are the lazy slackers?

    OK that was harsh, but I suspect it may get some attention so I will let it stand and put my nomex back on. [​IMG]
     
  3. K6FAF

    K6FAF Guest

    To ab0wr, tim.

    The human race so far has survived because it was able to assimilate to new situations and to evolutionize therefore.

    The Ham Radio hobby has survived so far because of the ability of hams to compromise and assimilate. Do you deny the HRS the ability to change to the needs of today?

    See my post about Hurricane watch center earlier!

    That's all......

    73 de k6faf [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  4. KY5U

    KY5U Ham Member QRZ Page

    You mean the people making up question pools have books for sale for study material? Like, ye-ah! Like we'd allow that to happen! Next you'll be trying to tell me a NCI board member would be allowed to be a NCVEC member, and sell books too! Get real!
     
  5. AB0WR

    AB0WR Ham Member QRZ Page

    Evolution also produces all kinds of sports that are unviable. When these evolutionary dead ends are introduced into the species in large numbers  from outside, the entire species can be eradicated.

    Change for changes sake is NOT evolutionary - it is wild experimentation purely for the thrill of exerting power by those in control or purely for removing pressure points being applied against those in power. Neither reason is a good one.

    I have seen very, very little actual documentation that the ARS is in any kind of trouble let alone any root cause analysis on what might be causing it.

    If you want to ATTRACT new people, figure out how to attract them - don't just arbitrarily lower the entry barriers.

    Ask the car manufacturers if lowering price attracts new buyers in any numbers without some kind of ATTRACTION. Why do you think so many old models have been dropped and new ones introduced in the last decade?

    tim ab0wr
     
  6. K1MVP

    K1MVP Guest

    Look,-I am not going to argue with you as to how exactly
    this situation happened,--I still think IF the FCC had
    retained responsibility for testing,--there would still
    be "more credibility" in acquiring a ham ticket.
    By "handing over" the process to "whomever", the ARRL,
    VEC, this (IMO), did and has in the long run created
    problems.--you may or may not agree,--just my opinion.
    AND --I think you may have noticed with your many
    postings on this and other forums MOST OT`s are
    quiet on these "sensitive" issues, especially when the
    ARRL is involved.--Why do you think that is?

                                73, K1MVP
     
  7. KD5NCO

    KD5NCO Ham Member QRZ Page

    Quoted from above:

    "think you may have noticed with your many
    postings on this and other forums MOST OT`s are
    quiet on these "sensitive" issues, especially when the
    ARRL is involved.--Why do you think that is?

                               73, K1MVP "

    Well I don't know what answer you are seeking but maybe it could be that a MAJORITY of the OTs don't think the current system is broken.

    Just a thought that jumps out because I personally know about two dozen OTs and they never even talk about this subject other then to note that the "club" sure does have a bunch of 70 and 80 year olds and the current mortality rate indicates no club by 2010.

    This is not a tongue and cheek cheep shot... this is exactly the focus I see at every meeting (12 times a year) since I joined in 2001.

    There are some minor attempts to keep the repeater going (money). Some pats on the back for club position in the last contest. There is some chat about some new rig an old timer purchased, and more pats on the back for somebody that resurrected a Heath Apache or whatever.

    But certainly no real discussion on Enforcement, BPL, CC&Rs, test pool, FCC rules, element 1 testing, or any other upper level ARS policy discussions.

    BTW this is a local club that provides testing 4 times a year and even that sub group only talks about the mechanics of the next event and not policy or relevance.

    (FWIW, my new guy ideas, even at age 50 but just a Technician, are not welcome) I stick it out so I can learn all I can before these wise "been there done that" old guys go SK. (I am not too far from being an OF myself)
     
  8. AC0GT

    AC0GT Ham Member QRZ Page

    I don't think the elimination of Morse code testing was an arbitrary lowering of the testing requirements, and many, including the FCC, agree with me.  If you've read the FCC documents in the past you would realize this.  Morse code testing has become arbitrary, it no longer serves any regulatory purpose.  The FCC has rejected any proposed new entry level license class, it would seem primarily on the basis that the Technician class is simple enough to get.

    This is not change for the sake of change, this has been decades in the making.  People have been rejecting Amateur radio partly because of the Morse code requirement.  Few people see the relevance that Morse code has given current technology.  Trying to convince them otherwise is going to be quite futile.  This is the first step to attracting new people, making the testing requirements more relevant to the desires of newcomers and of the world as a whole.

    This has all been said before but you don't want to hear it.

    If you think that the written tests are too easy then either talk to the QPC about the question pool or come up with a well thought out and complete proposal for the FCC.  Don't just tell them the testing needs to be "harder" tell them exactly what needs to be done.  It seems to me that the FCC will do what is asked of them if the proposal is clear, the logic is valid, and a majority agree.
     
  9. K1MVP

    K1MVP Guest

    Hi Fred,
    You may be right as far as many OT`s not thinking the
    "system" is broken,--BUT I do know many who do think
    it is, but as I mentioned before, most will not say
    anything publicly,--either on the these forums or on the
    air.
    Your assertion that they do not think it`s broken, brings
    up another question,--why is that?--Is it because the
    ARRL and others have convinced them that everything
    is "A OK"?
                                73, Rene, K1MVP
     
  10. W2CO

    W2CO Ham Member QRZ Page

    AG4YO wrote:
    "The ink is not dry on the NPRM and already the next phase of "kill CW" begins. Lets take spectrum from the best behaved amateurs in the hobby and give it to the skip talkers. Eh roger, good buddy!

    More idiots will flock to phone. How do I know?  Because you already hear them on repeaters, see them at hamfests, and at club meetings.  They will be able to pass the written test because it is not a test, it is a memory drill.  Ask Alaska Steve about the class he taught of Generals and NCTs upgrading.  After studying and being able to pass the practice tests, none of them could quote OHM's Law.  When they complained that was too technical, he asked them what the wavelength of 20M was.  Nobody knew.  Two guys wanted the "conversion factor".

    More dim-wits on phone will mean more pressure for more spectrum.  A real mob mentality will prevail.  The group of well behaved, knowledgable CW ops will be shouted down by the mob.  Look at the comments above if you don't think it hasn't started already. Even the many well behaved phone ops today will be caught up in the stampede.

    Predictions that Amateur Radio will not get nastier and more contentious are Pollyannaish."

    Right on man. And there's nothing we can do about it either except make our comments where they count, on the ECFS system. You know that we are greatly outnumbered by the dimwits so I will stay within my only safe harbor (the extra CW sub bands). No Coders you can have the phone band to ruin but Stay Out of the Extra CW bands. If you disrespect this there are many CW operators that will report you. There will be no CBer LIDS on CW!
     
  11. KY5U

    KY5U Ham Member QRZ Page

    I was agreeing with you....
     
  12. K1MVP

    K1MVP Guest

    OK Charlie,--
    Sorry if I "read" into your statement.--I apologize.--
    I guess it time for a "time out" for myself on this
    issue on this forum --and get back to enjoying ham radio.                  
                            73, Rene, K1MVP
     
  13. AB0WR

    AB0WR Ham Member QRZ Page

    Once again, 5wpm Morse code is no more a barrier to getting an amateur license than gaining a certain level of technical knowledge. In fact, for most people it is LESS of a barrier. That argument is just a non-starter, it always has been, it will remain so.

    The argument that Morse Code serves no regulatory purpose is just as fallacious. The technical knowledge portion of the test serves no more of a regulatory purpose. It is just as much of an arbitrary barrier as the Morse Code because the ANSWERS to the test questions are publically available.

    That is why they don't publish the answers to the SAT and ACT tests - they would become meaningless for judging whether or not the test taker knows the material or has just memorized the answers.

    It isn't a matter of how DIFFICULT the subject areas addressed by the questions are, it is a matter of the SPECIFIC ANSWERS being publically available. You simply cannot address the difficulty of the test by making the questions harder.

    You CAN, as was suggested by someone else, make the tests so long that the average person cannot memorize the answers or you can make the question pools so large that, once again, memorizing all the answers is not possible.

    But I suspect you would scream as loud as most if we made the General test 500 questions long with a pool of 5000 questions to choose from. It would make your upgrade test much, much more difficult.

    Besides, it isn't going to happen anyway. The VEC organizations would never buy into it. It would cut into their revenue stream.

    As far as technical relevance, most people see no relevance in learning ANY of the technical knowledge either - it is ALL out of date with most peoples experience.

    I set my college sophomore and high school junior down this weekend to talk about getting their licenses - one more time. The answer was - not interested. They can talk (actually talk - not just type) to new people over the internet - using VOIP while playing games or whatever. They can watch, minute-by-minute, what is going on with the hurricane over cable and internet feeds.

    There IS NO ATTRACTION that makes learning the technical stuff worthwhile. There is nothing at the end of the effort that is *attractive*.

    Both said that if there were a license that had ONLY Morse Code testing, it would be more attractive. It would take a LOT less time to learn.

    They and their friends ARE attracted to the remote sensing robot project and could see getting a license for use with such a thing. But they, again, DON'T want to have to learn a bunch of technical knowledge they will never, ever use. Frankly, they said they would rather just build the links using what is needed and worry about someone reporting them later - which will probably never happen.

    What you and the FCC seem to be missing is that when easily used, type-accepted equipment is available and fits a widely acknowleged *good* purpose, people will use it - regardless of the FCC regulations. The CB and GMRS services are prime examples of history that you and the FCC seem to be incapable of learning from.

    It is my considered opinion that we are probably just a few years away from losing our 802.11g frequency allocations because people like you are too unwilling to break out of the box with your thinking and actually develop a license that is ATTRACTIVE to people because there is something it can be used for.

    That is why I am still working on a proposal to the FCC for basically a minimum-test license restricted to use on the 802.11g frequencies.

    So you just stay in your microcosm and feel good about yourself.

    Meanwhile, the rest of us can go ahead with finding ways to make the service *ATTRACTIVE and RELEVANT* to new, young people.

    tim ab0wr
     
  14. KY5U

    KY5U Ham Member QRZ Page

    Predominately, people who cannot meet the requirement have whined for decades and now have managed to get the requirement changed. This nothing to do with telegraphy as telegraphy is still the second most popular mode no matter what the other people outside Amateur Radio have done. The whiners have managed to convince everyone that telegrapy is keeping people out of AR. There is a codeless license now that allows new applicants to implement wideband digital networks and services on frequencies where bandwidth rules allow. Note that there are little or no data systems up even those those licensees are 350k strong.

    Removing telegraphy accomplishes one thing. It gets current NCT's who have not been motivated to pass the test on HF where they can shoot skip just like the real Amateurs. You can put lipstick on this pig, but it is still a pig.

    You are correct in that you're not going to convince me that you are right because I have done my homework and know you are not. Looks like you're more likely to continue to convince yourself. You got what you wanted, lets see what you do with it. We'll be watching for all the great innovations.

    Feel free to ignore this post. I have heard all your excuses before.
     
  15. W5MJL

    W5MJL Ham Member QRZ Page

    You left out one very important word in the above sentence.

    It should read:

    Lazy people have been rejecting Amateur radio partly because of the Morse code requirement.

    There, now it makes more sense!
     
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