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Time To Change The Contest Rules

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by VE3II, Mar 27, 2004.

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  1. N7BUI

    N7BUI Ham Member QRZ Page

    I just had to put in a reply to this thread.  My experience with contesting is minimal, but I've been listening and operating around it for 30 plus years.  In my opinion most of the issues revolve around 20 meters.  It's crowded and lots of times the frequency will sound clear at a contesters QTH and yet he can interfere with stations that are using it.  What I have observed on the other bands (40 meters especially) is that the nets are normally given a wide berth and rag chewers tend to go up to the higher end of the band and left alone.  Now this is my experience on the west coast.  The east coast has a heck of a lot more hams and your experience's might be different.  

    George
    N7BUI
     
  2. WA7RCT

    WA7RCT Ham Member QRZ Page

    I think contests are kind of fun, although I'm not an avid contester. I like to throw my call in the ring for a few hours during a contest weekend just to see how my station is working and to maybe work a new one or two. My pet peave about contesters during a SSB contest, especially on 40 meters:

    Station W2XXXX is on 7.250 calling CQ and listening on 7.030 (a CW frequency for U.S. hams). We who would like to get away from the contest and operate CW during a SSB contest are still bombarded with contesters (DX) calling the U.S. station on the CW frequencies. I heard several U.S. hams operating this way. So the argument for the non-contester to move to another mode is sometimes not a valid point.

    Yes, it's legal for the DX station to be using those lower frequencies on SSB, but why encourage it. Sure ruins 40 meters up and down the whole band during a SSB contest.

    For what it's worth [​IMG]
     
  3. N9TTX

    N9TTX Ham Member QRZ Page

    I am a contester over a ragchewer. I do both, but I mostly make quick QSO's, and move to the next person. If I get into a ragchew, I chew the rag. In any case I have noticed over the years that as one person said, the arguments go both ways. I have heard contesters drop in on top of a QSO in progress, and I have heard a net or ragchewer do the same to a contester. When I find a place to sit and hopefully call out, I listen first for a while to check for activity. If I hear nothing, I call out with a "is the frequency in use?", and then ask a second time. I also give my call with each query. I have on many occasions, been dropped on by a contestoer or a ragchewer without them asking if the frequency is in use, and then to have them tell me to move. I have also been told that I am running on top of a net (after a good amount of time), or that the frequency is in use. most often I don't care to argue and I will move, but I also point out that I had asked if the freq was in use and that I had been there for a good half hour or so already with no interferance. Sometimes the one person will not be able to hear someone else...that is what propagation is all about. so I give it the benifit of the doubt most often than not. I have also heard Ragchewers QRM a contester, and say they are doing it to the contester, just because they don't care for contests. I heard one guy say he loves contests because he can come out and interfere with them all the time. Many of these that I have heard over the years have not ever given their calls. Contesters also can be blatently rude. the overwide signals, unintelligible phone or CW speed freaks...not giving calls out (I am ussuming they are relying on the spotting clusters to fill in their call for them)...etc... No one group is completely to blame. We as contesters, ragchewers, net participants, etc.. are all to blame.

    As for Band allocations for contesting...I noticed that particularly during the Minnesota QSO party and the Wisconsin QSO party, the rules give suggested frequencies to adhere to. The ARRL DX contests seemed to work more toward the bottom part of the bands, with people moving up as the band got crowded...but for the most part, I noticed the top part of the bands were open to casual conversation. I did notice a few contesters running the very band edges...and not too many people coming back to them I might add. As for the nets, I personally stay clear from 14.300 and 14.336 (basically I run below 14.290)...and yes I stay away from the image area around 14.230. I don't like running nets though I will check in to some now and again like the OMISS net or maritime mobile net, but for the most part, I am also not a net person, but I do respect those that run them.

    I like the contesting because I can learn to utilize by radio features better. I can learn how to filter and shift to "hear" one station and not another, I have learned to use split frequencies better. I have learned to listen to a pile of stations and pick the correct one out. I use contesting as a learning experience as well as a good way to add to my lists for the various awards. I work nights and sleep days during the week, and the weekend is the only time that I really get on the bands. When I have the HF rig in the car, I run 10 or 20 meter to and from work. My contacts are short, but I do gain info. I personally don't care to hear about the latest aches and pains the other person has, what they are eating for lunch or what the weather is like....although it seems like I attract these reports like flies to spilled mead. I do like to know what the other person is running for a rig, antenna, or mic, but not their shoe size, or how cute their cat looks while walking across the floor. I will take time to chew the fat with someone while I am contesting, if the dialog is interesting. I also inject humor into my contesting...some die-hards don;t like that...oh well.

    Anyhow, now that I have rambled about for a while here, let me wrap it up by pointing out that although the contests may seem hoggish, it is not just the contesters that are causing the problems. Everyone (in general) has given their fair share of QRM, complaints, bossyness, etc... Why not work with those around you on the bands. Remember...some of those people may not hear you or your friends having your conversation due to propagation...and vice versa. I do think there should be some set areas for contesting...as I said take a look at the Minnesota Wireless Association page for the MNQP and the West Allis Radio Amateur Club site for the WIQP. Both have suggested frequencies, and they were pretty well adhered to. Good luck and catch you all on the bands.

    Dave...N9TTX
     
  4. WA3VJB

    WA3VJB Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    I wish the contest buffs saw what's in it for them to voluntarily constrain their activities and make room for non-participants. There's a certain arrogance in any of the typical defensive comments that attempt to justify why contests "should' remain the way they are.

    I can see merit in arguments against most changes in contest rules, because most proposals so far would ruin the ability to compare scores from year to year, which is a key component in such competitions. It would be like dropping an inning in a baseball game to downsize the play for whatever reason. All the statistics would be messed up from then on.

    What I fail to understand is why the contest community refuses an easy way to make friends with the neighbors and increase competition among themselves, by concentrating their activities within specific voluntary operating zones. Voluntary in this sense means short of an FCC mandate, but by all means, a firm contest rule. Such a compromise would generate a lot of goodwill.

    With chatter about bandwidth-based segregation on the HF bands, I am among those who will make certain any future regulatory deliberations consider contests a form of bandwidth consumption whose effects must be addressed in any such proceeding. It will be at the peril of contestors if they refuse to recognize that their use of the band must be coordinated with other modes and activities on the bands that we all are supposed to share.

    Responsible comments from prominent contestors welcome.

    Paul/VJB
     
  5. KD4E

    KD4E Ham Member QRZ Page

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KB8WFH @ Mar. 29 2004,20:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Rules changes would not be necessary if courteous operating procedure was followed. This last weekend, nets like MidCARS and the Maritime Mobile net were constantly chasing contesters off. These contesters operated is some cases right on or no more than 50 Hz (Yes, I said Hz, not KHz) away. Sometimes, they still wouldn’t move, blasting a splattering 7 KHz wide path of frantic “CQ CONTEST!, CQ CONTEST!” over ships and HF mobiles trying to get checked in. Any contester ham knows those nets are there. Those SSB nets serve more than regchewing and need to be observed. KB8WFH[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Someone needs to create a Web site that documents bad contesting practices. (I lack the time at the moment.)

    Each entry would include time, date, frequency, callsign, and preferably an audio clip (even better a spectrum image that would show the proximity of signals). We have the technology.

    Then we share that URL with the ARRL. CQ, and with Riley Hollingsworth at the FCC.

    If we make the effort to document patterns of bad behavior by specific operators Riley will first warn them, then cite them, and if they continue to ignore the regs he will confiscate their equipment and their licenses to operate.

    We do the contest folks a favor by removing the bad apples and the rest of the hobby a favor by insisting upon good and legal operating practices.

    Isn't this what Official Observers are supposed to be doing?

    73, doc kd4e
     
  6. WA3KYY

    WA3KYY Ham Member QRZ Page

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wa7rct @ Mar. 30 2004,01:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, it's legal for the DX station to be using those lower frequencies on SSB, but why encourage it.  Sure ruins 40 meters up and down the whole band during a SSB contest.

    For what it's worth   [​IMG][/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Just where is the DX station supposed to operate on 40M? Except for Region 2, the rest of the world only has 7.0-7.1 MHz available. Normally DX phone ops stay above 7.050 but there is the Region 2 PSK ops at 7.07 and RTTY at 7.08-7.085 and PACTOR thrown in the mix. That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for the DX phone operators to use even when there isn't a world wide contest going. Remember, the DX outside of Region 2 cannot go above 7.1MHz and US ops cannot use phone below 7.15MHz. Split frequency operation is a way of life for US 40M phone DX chasers.

    73,
    Mike
     
  7. N2EA

    N2EA Ham Member QRZ Page

    First, I wish that new posts appeared on TOP of the queue, rather than at the bottom....I agree with one of your thoughts, and disagree with others:

    First, I suspect the amateur population who compete in contests is more like 30% of those with HF licenses, worldwide, not the 5% you cite.

    Secondly, a goodly number of the "you're wide" complaints come from stations with poor receivers. lack of filtering or insufficiently robust front ends. Yes, there ARE overdriven rigs, and sometimes they can be a bit wide...but explain to me how I can be 3KHz from someone, not hear them at all...and have them complain that I'm "wiping them out". If I'm clean, it has to be their RX. (and my signal IS clean.)

    Thirdly, part of the contention arises from nets who feel they have a franchise on a particular frequency at a particular time. I'm not unsympathetic to their plight...there's no other way to effectively meet...but their inability to move is part of the problem.

    Fourth, I LIKE the idea of having a contest free zone,
    and have proposed this in the past. "go to WARC" isn't the answer, because of propagation issues...but having everything above 14.280 reserved for non-combatants is a good idea. How do you move the nets up? With some warning, they can announce planned frequency change for contest weekends.

    Fifth, there was a comment regarding split operation on 40 meters, denying cw bands to US operators. Harmonization of international bands around 40 meters is long overdue. Seldom do EU/AS phone operators go as low as 7030, but 7040 isn't uncommon, in my experience. There is no other way to deal with the split band, I'm afraid. And, there is the inverse interference problem: DX stn on 7090 QSX 7239. Can't hear a US domestic station on 7038 lsb...and a parade of strong competitors may not, either, as they step on the existing QSO. I'm as guilty as anyone in that department...with a sea of callers, it's hard to tell if there's someone underneath.

    And finally...unless you've heard the bands from the EU side, you can't begin to imagine what interference IS. It's many times noisier over there, in my experience.

    N2EA, Jim
     
  8. ZL1TM

    ZL1TM Ham Member QRZ Page

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I fail to understand is why the contest community refuses an easy way to make friends with the neighbors and increase competition among themselves,by concentrating their activities within specific voluntary operating zones[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    I am sorry Paul, but could you please be more specific. What EXACTLY are you suggesting, what are your proposed operating zones? Let's take 20 m band. We already had "stay clear of 14.225 thru 14.238" message from this very topic. Next there will be message "stay of" 14.260 - IOTA frequency, 14.195 - DX frequency (and because DX often "listening 5 to 10 up" that will become "stay of 14.200 thru 14205" , then all the nets come with their "stay of" messages because </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"SSB nets serve more than regchewing and need to be observed"[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    And of course the big question is if contest community accepts those operating zone, will non-contest community stay away from them?

    Regards & 73!
    Andrei, de ZL1TM
     
  9. WA3KYY

    WA3KYY Ham Member QRZ Page

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wa3vjb @ Mar. 30 2004,05:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I fail to understand is why the contest community refuses an easy way to make friends with the neighbors and increase competition among themselves, by concentrating their activities within specific voluntary operating zones. Voluntary in this sense means short of an FCC mandate, but by all means, a firm contest rule. Such a compromise would generate a lot of goodwill.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    What band segments would you propose on each HF band that are available to all HF amateurs in every country of the world?  In most cases that would place contests right in the middle of the segments most used for other activities.  For 40M phone, there is no common world wide allocation.  For 20M phone, the US General Class segment is 14.225-14.350. You have SSTV at 14.230-14.235 and major nets on 14.300 and 14.336.  Where in the General Class segment would you restrict contest activities to or would you keep contests on 20M below 14.225 eliminating all General Calls operators from participating? Or would you propose multiple slices throughout the bands to accomodate all operators of different classes with differing allocations?  How much of each band would you place off limits and would it make a difference if it was a state QSO party or a small national contest which attracts far fewer contesters than the CQ WW DX contest?  What happens to nets whose normal operating frequency falls in the contest segment? What about ragchewers who have used a frequency from the dawn of time and won't move out of the contest zone? Would you be statisfied with 14.325-14.350 as the "No Contest" zone on 20M? Who decides?

    If such a scheme were to be in the rules, enforcement would not be a problem if the exact frequency of operation was in the log but provisions would be needed for split operations such as found on 40 & 75 phone during world wide contests.

    While it could be done, it is not an easy task to devise an appropriate plan.
     
  10. WA3VJB

    WA3VJB Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    Mike, thanks for your reply. To your final point --
    While it could be done, it is not an easy task to devise an appropriate plan.

    This is the sort of consideration I have been hoping for. I would not presume to suggest anything on my own regarding frequency layout, because I'm not a contest participant.

    That said, why couldn't the task be seen as part of the challenge by yourself and other contesters to craft an event that ALSO generates goodwill?

    You and other contesters may get a lot of benefit if non-participants reciprocate by temporarily making way for the areas where you agree to constrain your event.

    Regards
     
  11. AC3P

    AC3P Ham Member QRZ Page

    I was all set last weekend to get on the WPX and give out some multiplier points. But when I heard one DX station call someone an ***hole and another intentionally jamming a station that had been working the frequency for a long time, I turned the radio off and found something else to do.

    73

    Frank
     
  12. W8KPH

    W8KPH Ham Member QRZ Page

    I'm still fairly new at HF. Only got my upgrade late last year.
    But....
    I participated in WPX contest this past weekend ~ my first real taste of contesting as part of a team at our radio club's facility.
    It was fun to talk to hams all over the world, even for a the moment it takes to say "You're 5-9 and #1234".
    I did have one complaint on air from a net operating about 3kc away from where I was trying to contact a European station.
    I could have taken the more aggressive route like some do and threaten to report THEM for malicious interference when I'm more than the recommended 2kc away from their net. They threatened me and interfered with me every time I tried to get the European contact to move to a new frequency so we wouldn't bother the net. I'm trying to do the 'right' thing and they kept trouncing my signal.

    Now I really don't think I want to be a "serious contester", BUT.........


    Here are a few observations I've made in my 6-8 months on HF - - -

    There are formal nets who meet at pre-assigned times, freqs and that's fine and dandy.

    Then we have the OMRC - Old Men Rag Chewers who take over about 10kc of a band because of their lousy equipment and only ID if and when they damn well please. I've listened to so called nets in the 4 call area and not heard one ID for over 30 minutes. When they do ID, they do so all at once and speak so fast that you'd have to make a recording to play back later to even have an idea of who was operating. Try to nudge into one of these nets and you're promply booted out because, well, you're just not part of their clique.

    On non-contest weekends, and yes there're some of those, try to find a decent QSO with a DX in the General portion of the band. Good luck 'cuz there ain't no one there between the nets.

    Well, I really didn't want to be so long-winded, so here's my bottom line ~

    If you all think this is a hot topic and worthy to continue firing rounds at each other, then think about this ~

    How about firing some of your rounds at the FCC and your local energy companies about BPL or else you won't have to worry about contesters and non-contesters at all because we won't have any bands left on which to operate.

    Don't get me wrong, there's some really very good opinions posted on this topic from everyone, but there's a freight train fast approaching and all of you are standing in the middle of the tracks arguing about what side to stand on.

    'nuff said.
     
  13. W1XZ

    W1XZ Guest

    On a contest weekend there are wall to wall stations exchanging signal reports. On a non contest weekend there are a lot of guys talking to their buddies saying the same old same old...what is the difference in content? Nada. Is one QSO more valuable or important than another? Nope. If a contester wants to use a busy frequency and can't because some net is passing traffic then he can find another frequency...and vice versa. Try another band. Try another mode. Turn your radios off and go to a state park. Go reintroduce yourselves to your wives. Get another hobby.

    Keep your stick on the ice.
     
  14. K2TFT

    K2TFT Guest

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ag4hy @ Mar. 29 2004,10:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (lz4uu @ Mar. 28 2004,11:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As a contestman I'll also say "go to WARC",or if the contest is on SSB,why don't you try CW or other modes?
    73,de LZ4UU[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    typical, selfish, self-serving, self-centered, comment[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Right on!!! I say put the conrests on the WARC bands then these stations will have to be rebuild...or actually rebuy... their antenna farms, amps, etc. then we can see how clever they really aint! [​IMG]
     
  15. K2TFT

    K2TFT Guest

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WM5L @ Mar. 29 2004,17:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lets get a written petition together and take it to the folks at CQ and the ARRL[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Yeah and the same 1/2 wit will read it and make the decision like he did on licensing restructuring....save your breathe.... [​IMG]
     
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