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Time To Change The Contest Rules

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by VE3II, Mar 27, 2004.

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  1. K2TFT

    K2TFT Guest

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WM5Z @ Mar. 29 2004,20:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hi all, and thanks for listening to my response to contesters. First off, I am not a contestor. However, I feel that contests have a very important place in amateur radio. I feel that contesting trains many operators to accurately copy under dificult conditions. This is needed when we need trained operators during an emergency.

    So, even though some operators are rude, or some may not use the best techniques, most do, and they are in training for the day that they may be needed!

    Steve/WM5Z[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    WHAT SKILL? 5959595959 069 069 over over....maybe an auctioneer?
     
  2. N7AUS

    N7AUS Ham Member QRZ Page

    I'd just like to pint out to those contestors who say "go to WARC bands" that not every ham has access to the WARC bands either because of equipment that doesnt cover them or because of licening restrictions prevent them form having access.

    Yes I contest (when work allows) and yes I try to do the right thing but I know that sometimes it we can do it wrongly without meaning to but lets not make it worse by showing a we dont care attitude. Live and let live and try to allow non-contestors their right to use the bands too..
     
  3. KI4CYB

    KI4CYB XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    This topic can go both ways, we can exchange replies all day long on this topic...

    There is wrong doing on BOTH SIDES!


    All the comments/suggestions about moving contests to WARC bands is just plain wrong... keep in mind comments like moving contesters to WARC bands can also apply to the other side of the coin...

    As an example this past contest weekend, I was chasing a DX station and this guy had a pileup going on...
    In the middle of all this craziness the band conditions opened up and this pileup joined right on top of a net of rag chewers. Of course the rag chewers tried running off the contester. The net group of course was stating they were on freq first and so on. The arguments went on for a while, the net group cranking up the power (very funny to listen) to try to overcome the QRM and overtake the contest station. But eventually the pile up won and forced the net group to move.

    Listening to rude operator confrontations on the air is sometimes funny... I know this should not be funny, but it just shows how rude people can get..  

    I do not enter contests, but I do love chasing and logging DX contacts. These contests brings out those rare locations one usually needs..  I do not like to chew the rag, so I enjoy all other modes available in this great hobby.

    Did I mention I love jumping into pileups... For me at least busting a pileup is fun... [​IMG]

    73 DE KI4CYB
     
  4. W9WHE

    W9WHE Ham Member QRZ Page

    TIME FOR A REALITY CHECK. LET'S SEPERATE MYTH FROM REALITY.


    MYTH:     Contests train good operators.
    REALITY: If that were the case, then threads like this would not appear after EVERY contest!

    MYTH:     Contests help prepare for post-armagedon survival.
    REALITY: Post armagedon, people will be looking for food, clothing and shelter, not getting on 20 meters yelling "CQ contest your 5/9 tuskaloosa". There will be far FEWER ops on the air and the bans will be LESS crowded.

    MYTH:      Contests are good for working DX because rare stations only get on the air for contests.
    REALITY:  Even if this were true, who the heck can hear them over all the chaos. If you want to work rare DX, try a DXpedition or watch a packet cluster.

    MYTH:     Contests are good because they increase band activity.
    REALITY: All activity is not necessaraly good. These people belong to the "more is better" school focusing on quantity over quality. Any outsider listening durring a contest will rapidly conclude that we are worse than CB.

    MYTH:      Contesting is good for ham radio.
    REALITY:  By dividing hams, contests do a disservice to all of ham radio.
     
  5. WA3KYY

    WA3KYY Ham Member QRZ Page

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wa3vjb @ Mar. 30 2004,06:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Mike, thanks for your reply. To your final point --
    While it could be done, it is not an easy task to devise an appropriate plan.

    This is the sort of consideration I have been hoping for. I would not presume to suggest anything on my own  regarding frequency layout, because I'm not a contest participant.

    That said, why couldn't the task be seen as part of the challenge by yourself and other contesters to craft an event that ALSO generates goodwill?

    You and other contesters may get a lot of benefit if non-participants reciprocate by temporarily making way for the areas where you agree to constrain your event.

    Regards[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Paul,

    Well I am probably not in any better position to recommend appropriate zones for contesting/non-contesting activities than you are. I generally only contest for more than a few hours in 2 or 3 contests a year. I have yet to call CQ in an HF contest which guarantees I will never win an award [​IMG] I generally use contests as a way to work new countries since the chances of finding a new country are much greater during a contest. I made a grand total on 26 contacts during last weekend's WPX SSB contest. 2 were all time new countries, 20 were new countries on a given band and the rest were points for friends. I also picked up one all time new country and 6 new countries on individual bands that were not contest QSOs. The latter were from two major DXpeditions that were not participating in the contest on modes other than SSB. The DXpeditions were actually begging for contacts since it seemed most folks were working in the contest. The pileups for the DXpedition stations got much larger after the contest ended.

    I aluded to some of the problems with defining specifc segments into which contest activity would be restricted. From a practical standpoint, the contest segment would need to be contiguous which would also provide a contiguous non-contest segment. I just don't know how this would be arranged on 20M phone, taking the worst possible case. Due to the large number of entrenched activities, providing a usable contiguous segment for US General Class operators to use is probably impossible. I would expect as a minimum that 14.227-14.240 and 14.295-14.340 would be off limits to contesters but that still leaves many activities impacted and they might not be too receptive to moving into the protected zones.

    As I said, a very difficult plan to work out.

    73,
    Mike
     
  6. W9WHE

    W9WHE Ham Member QRZ Page

    I disagree.

    Sending contests to the WARC bands one EASY solution.
    Limiting contests to either the upper 1/2 or lower 1/2 of any particular band is another EASY solution. Limiting contests to one or two bands is yet another EASY solution. Limiting contests to week days is still another EASY solution. See...its not really so hard after all.

    The real problem, as I see it, is a certain "mentality" which is fairly (although not universally) common among contesters. And that attitude is "might makes right" and/or "I'm a super-elete contester, I can do as I please".
     
  7. KU2S

    KU2S Ham Member QRZ Page

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w7uy @ Mar. 29 2004,14:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I count about 52 weekends per year on my calendar.

    I got up in the middle of the night to check out 80 and 160 meters this past weekend and found more rag chewers than contesters.

    Additional rules from the FCC are not the answer. [​IMG][/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Yeah? Well... for me the year ends at JUNE! So THERE!

    Man, talk about a brain fart... Wait.. can you say that on here?
     
  8. WA3VJB

    WA3VJB Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    Andre, Mike, others,

    OK, I will concede that it won't be as easy as I thought to simply constrain contest operations to seamless segments of the bands where such an event is held, now that you have educated me about the different segments stateside versus international that prompt "split" operation.

    I disagree however that the idea is ruined by what you feel is the inevitable exceptions that would be demanded by some groups, even if the contest community agreed to voluntary limits as to where an event is held.

    The whole idea is that by limiting your activity to a selected part of the band (or transmit and receive "parts" as the case may be) you may earn respect and cooperation by other responsible non-participants who would and should agree to make way on these occasions.

    Maybe it's not realistic to hope for something better, but the alternative is today's mess with wild contest callouts on top of aggrieved non-participants. Neither side really has a place to go, do we?

    Consequently, because of the organizational structure governing contests, it really falls to participants to come up with and agree to an operating layout that tries to demonstrate goodwill toward the range of individuals on the outside.

    Part of your compromise in achieving such a plan may indeed be to forego unlimited split operation for international contacts, or some other answer that eludes me which may still preserve the flavor of your event.

    Not to your points, but to others on this thread, I'd like to urge a reality check:
    A certain amount of unintentional interference is inevitable in a non-essential hobbyist radio service, where all modes and activities enjoy an equal claim on the spectrum allocated to us.  

    The motive here is to reduce the amount of poison each side carries for the other when it "feels" the need to defend their equal claim, instead of choosing to blink first in the name of diplomacy when a squabble threatens to ruin operating conditions.

    Paul/VJB
     
  9. WA3KYY

    WA3KYY Ham Member QRZ Page

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W9WHE @ Mar. 30 2004,09:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I disagree.

    Sending contests to the WARC bands one  EASY solution.
    Limiting contests to either the upper 1/2 or lower 1/2 of any particular band is another EASY solution. Limiting contests to one or two bands is yet another EASY solution. Limiting contests to week days is still another EASY solution.  See...its not really so hard after all.

    The real problem, as I see it, is a certain "mentality" which is fairly (although not universally) common among contesters. And that attitude is "might makes right" and/or "I'm a super-elete contester, I can do as I please".[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    WARC bands are off limits for contests by International Agreement between the various member societies of the IARU.  30M is a shared band with amateurs having a secondary status in most places.

    Upper or lower segments of the bands has considerable merit.  For as long as I can remember, accepted practice for contests is to start at the low end of the band and expand up as activity increases but given the numbers of operators today perhaps the time has come for a hard upper liimt to contest activity. But, do you care to tell the SSTV operators they have to move off 14.228-14.235?  How about the County Hunters on 14.336 or the Maritime Mobile Service Net on 14.300?  No matter which segment of 20M you chose, someone's ox will be gored.  Do you really think non-contesters will care a whit about any band limits proposed for a contest and move their operations to the non-contest segment?  While requiring actual frequencies in submitted logs with penalties for operating outside the contest segments will work to keep the contest within the specified bounds how do you propose to keep non-contesters out of the contest segment?


    Many contests are already time, band and mode limited cf the various Sprints.  There are only a handful of big contests that use all bands 160-10 and I do not beleive any of the big contests except Field Day are all band, all mode.

    The attitude you mention is found in a minority in BOTH camps with the predictable results.  They cause the majority of the problems for all concerned. But these same conflicts occur daily even without a contest. Too many have either never been taught or have forgotten Good Amateur Practice. That should apply 24/7 to all our activities. No individual or group is exempt.
     
  10. K3ESE

    K3ESE Ham Member QRZ Page

    Cool! Did someone say all contests will be CW-only from here on out??!! Whoopee! I'll go spread the word...!
     
  11. ZL1TM

    ZL1TM Ham Member QRZ Page

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W9WHE @ Mar. 30 2004,08:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">MYTH:     Contests train good operators[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>If you are talking about ability to dig out and copy weak signals, ability to understand propagation, ability to advance techical knowledge by building contest station, then no, it is not MYTH.
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">MYTH:      Contests are good for working DX because rare stations only get on the air for contests ...try a DXpedition or watch a packet cluster[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Check ANY Dx calendar and you will see that most of major DX-peditions fall into one of 4-5 Major contests. And tell me what is the difference between Dx-pedition "59" and contest "59001". May I also remind you that packet clusters have actually been introduced by contesters.
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">MYTH:     Contests are good because they increase band activity[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>Come on. There is a live outside of W/VE. Come to ZL and listen at the very end of a major contest - contest is over - bang, as if somebody switched everything off - the bands are deserted, NIL. Sorry, but when a contester with 6 el monobander is 57 on S-meter we can't hear guys with verticals. And you can't argue that with short contest QSO's bands are better utilised than with nice 1 hour chats - there are 100 contacts made on that frequency during that time instead of 1.
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">MYTH:      Contesting is good for ham radio...By dividing hams, contests do a disservice to all of ham radio[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Why anti-contesters bring this topic after EVERY major SSB contest? Some enjoys contest challenge, the others are happy with a local chat. Why "Hi John, long time no talk, last heard 6 hours ago. How was your breakfast?" is ANY better than "59 001"? Why "limit", "force", "move them to WARC", "change the rules"? Isn't ham radio just  a HOBBY? Nobody, again, nobody stops you or anybody else to tune on ANY frequency during ANY contest and call "CQ no contest". You don't have stack of monobanders and modern rig with the filters to stand QRM? Me neither, but it is hardly contesters' fault.

    Regards & 73!
    Andrei, de ZL1TM
     
  12. K3GI

    K3GI Ham Member QRZ Page

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (lz4uu @ Mar. 29 2004,10:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As a contestman I'll also say "go to WARC",or if the contest is on SSB,why don't you try CW or other modes?
    73,de LZ4UU[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    That's what I do. [​IMG]
     
  13. AE5MH

    AE5MH Ham Member QRZ Page

    OK lets be fair,

    Who would you like to infringe upon by allowing a contest free zone on each band?  Would that be you or the guy 100 kc down from you?  My bet is that if you open a dialog even suggesting that your routine part of the band should be left alone during contests, then those that frequent that spectrum (that might prefer not to contest) will be offended more than you!  Oh yeah, what about those that have peaked up their particular antenna in the lower portion of the band to find out that they can't play because their antenna doesn't have the bandwidth to go there?

    Who draws the lines here?  I guess it would be too bad if your on the other side of that line now wouldn't it?

    What about them dang "Special Event" stations?  Do you think they aught to be relegated to the "Dark zone" so that all the ragchewers on 80 mtrs can still discuss their last operation? (Just kidding guys&#33[​IMG]

    And how about them dang QRP'ers that you have to be patient with and hope they make that really rare "Q"? (again no offense intended&#33[​IMG]

    And if you ask me them dang CW operators got way too much band for what they do! (really just kidding&#33[​IMG]

    Obviously, I am being a little sarcastic and playing the devils advocate here.  This to hopefully make a point that we need make an extra effort to peacefully co-exist.  

    Lets have a new contest ! Lets see how many people can have as many 10 minute ragchews on 20 mtrs during Sweepstakes!

    I have to agree that the weekend contests have gotten a little crazy.  Having a QSO on CQWW weekend (and a variety of others) on 20,40 or even 80 mtrs... well you might as well just write an email as it would be better for your blood pressure!

    I happen to agree in principal with your issue here.  I just don't see a logical solution that would keep the peace and harmony except maybe use those priviledges granted on 17 and 30 mtrs (which basically was why they made them "contest free" right.  I guess we go back to that "make everybody unhappy equally" philosophy?

    Advise: Do something about it. buy a verticle for 17 and 30 mtrs or go to the 60 mtr band during contest weekends.

    Incidentally CQ and the ARRL are but a few orgs that sponsor contests.  Field Day is not a contest (yeah right) and the IRS is here to help you!

    Your routine frequency that you get on every night/day/weekend nor any other portion of the band that you are thinking about giving away to contestors is not for sale nor yours to sell.  Someone else is there too!  

    Maybe, just maybe them dang contestors remind you of that fact that you don't own anything except for maybe your equipment and the right to speak your mind!

    My intentions are purely to point out that we should all just get along and have fun with the bands that we have, while we still have them.

    REMEMBER...ITS A HOBBY!

    73 and good contesting!
    Mark
     
  14. K0XXX

    K0XXX Guest

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AE5MH @ Mar. 30 2004,18:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">REMEMBER...ITS A HOBBY!

    73 and good contesting!
    Mark[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Well said!

    73,
    Mark
     
  15. KI4CYB

    KI4CYB XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    TRUE! this is a Hobby!


    So when is the next contest!!!??  [​IMG]
     
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