NEW CHA F-LOOP 2.0 from Chameleon Antenna is NOW AVAILABLE!

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by KI6TRA, Apr 30, 2017.

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  1. OH8STN

    OH8STN Ham Member QRZ Page

    Thanks for your reply Dale
    First I have to say I don't like the marketing brouhaha either, regardless of who it comes from. I've said this to Carl and other companies of employing this method of promotion in amateur radio. The difference is I usually do it quietly, in a private discussion.
    Dale, should we understand your enthusiasm toward Alpha antenna, Alexloop, Chameleon Antenna, and G4TPH is heartfelt, and only meant to Enlighten the rest of the amateur radio Community to the awful marketing practices of these businesses? I am not sure that is true!
    Before I continue, I am no stakeholder in Chameleon or any other business. Although it is said I get paid for reviews, I don't! I am just a guy who enjoys sharing the world of amateur radio, the outdoors, and the survival mindset.

    Ok Dale, I can't debate about a manufacturers level of engineering skills. I just find it incredible that you are willing to ignore a fine product because you beleive someone without an advanced degree in engineering, would not possibly be able to build something superior to your own product. A product with your callsign on it, which you hold a patent application for, which is licensed(?) to LNR for production and sales.

    Let us do a bit of fact checking
    - You say on your PAR website "The primary design goal was to offer a loop, at lower cost, than what is available but with better performance, high quality construction and features not found on the currently available loops. To that end, this design has almost 100 parts, many of which require considerable machining to achieve excellent fit."
    - - Cost LNR lists the W4OP loop at 329.99USB. If you add the tripod adapter, and the case the price increases. If you add te 6m kit, the price increases again. If you add shipping the price increases again. the Alexloop and Chameleon F loops include carrying case in the price (not hidden) the Chameleon has the tripod adapter integrated into the product at no extra charge. The Chameleon also has free worldwide shipping, and includes coax cable. Hell the P-LOOP even has the tripod adapter integrated into its base, and comes with the tripod. It also has the larger main and coupling loop kits. So yours/LNR sites are telling parts of the truth, but not the entire truth.

    - Efficiency. Your comparisons (also copied word for word on LNR site) are based on your "calculations" but as far as I can tell, you have never actually had any of these competing loops in your hands, or given them to an individual lab for independent testing. Just so we understand. You have a patent pending on a loop with your callsign, sold by a company PAR (your company) made a deal with, which allows them to manufacture the W4OP loop, yet you are not a stakeholder? Ok, if we are to take this as truth, why are you basing your comparisons on the products as they existed 3 years ago? Alpha and Chameleon have larger standard loops as well as even larger main loop kits, and Chameleon has main and coupling loop kits which are larger and more efficient than your own (sorry I meant LNRs) W4OP Loop? Why have you not yet added the larger main and coupling loops and run your efficiency calculation again, publishing those results on yours and LNR websites? You said "The W4OP loop has no need to a booster kit",Ok fair enough. This tells me you and LNR don't understand how or the conditions man portable operators work in. An operator reviewing the W4OP loop on eham even said "The W4OP main loop is too big". The reason the Alpha, Chameleon, and Alexloops are smaller is not because they don't understand physics. It is because they understand they field operator! You can't manage that large loop in the conditions I normally operate in. So a smaller, lighter (even when its less efficient) loop, is more practical, than your larger, more efficient system. So I am agreeing with you on efficiency, but explaining what is obvious to a man portable operator.

    Look Dale, I have an entire list of things which rips apart your marketing. I just don't see any need to go through it here. The main point is like the others, you present your truth which LNR copies word for word and pastes on their website. The difference is tey are not attacking you or LNR on every forum post you make. The problem with the tesxt found on yours and LNR websites, is it is limiting the truth to only those parts which work out best for the LNR W4OP loop (which has your callsign and you have a patent application for, but are not a stakeholder). The thing is, your math skills are excellent, you know others might not compete there with you, so you focus your marketing attacks of these small amateur radio antenna builders, in the only place you can, that is in the physics! Not my style, but you'll have to expect, people are going to call you and LNR out on it.

    I am going to try to get one of the W4OP loops here to do an apples versus apples comparison. We are not going to just look at the math and models. We are going to take them to the field and test them in a way which is acceptable to the majority of hams interested in this thread.
    we will look at
    - ease of deployment
    - time to setup
    - weight
    - break-down size
    - and most important performance on all bands.

    After the video shoot, I can give the W4OP away to some lucky operator who could only dream about it. The only winners will be operators who hate marketing, forum bullies, or simply want a truthful comparison about these products. By the way, you still have the W4OP loop on PAR pages, a company you are the president of.

    Finally, It is very difficult to make a difference between You Dale, and LNR. I see LNR copies your out of date comparison material word for word so at the very least, you're trying to push sales of the loop with your callsign on it. I get that, but I don't think you should pretend you are not a stakeholder.
    I'll get in touch with LNR. I'll get the loop here and validate your hostility toward other ham manufacturers. If it's awesome, we will know it. If it's better than the others, we will know that. If it is not so practical in the field, we will also get to know that.
    From this point, i will stop hijacking Carls thread, and move this topic to my blog.
    I promise you, it will be open and fair. I might even invite some of the other ham radio bloggers in EU to come up and validate the tests.

    Kind regards
    Screenshot_20170503-110422.png Screenshot_20170503-131353.png Screenshot_20170503-131558.png Screenshot_20170503-131607.png
    WU3U likes this.
  2. KI6TRA

    KI6TRA Ham Member QRZ Page

    That's ok because I was done here anyway.....

    - C
    OH8STN likes this.
  3. KD6RF

    KD6RF Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Good quality measurement is always needed to cement the point, but seems to not yet be available due to the tedium and detail required to do objective meaningful testing. I'm no expert on Loop Design, but I can say that I appreciate the math driven arguments. Sans good quality reproducible measured data, Math and Model are king - and I appreciate Dale's points, and references to Owen's always interesting and usually correct work.
  4. OH8STN

    OH8STN Ham Member QRZ Page

    This reminds me of the Ford Mustang versus the Fiat Spider back in 1978/79. The Mustang had greater horsepower, more torque, a higher top end, ... From an Americans perspective, it was a better "sports" car. It beat the Spiders specs in every way Ford tested. Fiat countered with a slalom test! The Mustang failed. It simply could not stay on a curved road. On paper it should have won. :)
    have a good day operators.
    W6NIK likes this.
  5. AA5CT

    AA5CT Ham Member QRZ Page

    Well, "model this." That's my opening gambit ... now onto the serious stuff!

    "Modeling" (by OD) says the antenna used for the WSPR test run (six continuous hours) depicted in the image below was perhaps 'not worth the trouble' and nothing remarkable (not OD's exact words) as expressed in this online discussion (note: viewing on this website requires registration)

    ... but note how *few* other US stations (about 5 plus me) are spotted by the Japan station JH1GYE in that six hours out of ALL the other US stations operating on the band!!!

    The antenna that did this marvelous 'work' for me was a loop. Not a terribly small loop for 40 meters, but a tuned-loop nonetheless about 8 ft on a side (square) resonated with a capacitor and used on 40 meters not very high above ground:


    Point being, LET'S get some field reports before falling back on only "modeling and math." When the modeling is incomplete, inaccurate or the modeling tools are misused and abused myth and speculation gets spread around as if it were truth and gospel.

    BTW, I don't recall seeing the 'validation' testing of NEC4 with regard to 'grounds' and antenna performance. Maybe there has been some work in this area back when ...


    PS I got similar results in the same time period with the same loop and a Russian spotting WSPR station as shown here:

    OH8STN likes this.
  6. W4OP

    W4OP Ham Member QRZ Page

    Hi Julian,
    I accept your comments, except that I am not selling the loop and have no financial interest in it. The info on my site is for archive purposes only. You make some good points. I have apologized to Carl- and now also to you. My behavior has been less than what I demand of myself.
    Thank you for your comments,

    Dale W4OP
    W6NIK likes this.
  7. OH8STN

    OH8STN Ham Member QRZ Page

    I think we could use the wsprlite and dxplorer website, but that would require all competing loops to be in the same place at the same time, each with its own wsprlite device. Then results can be compared on the dxeplorer website.
    I like very much the idea of using wspr as one point of measure.

    Still performance is only one point to measure. In fact we already know the W4OP will perform better on 40 than the F-LOOP since it is physically larger than the F-LOOP. The F-LOOPs larger Booster kit (Main loop and Coil) should also be mesured since Dale/LNR insist the W4OP is the most efficient loop available commercially today.
    There are other perimeters which detrmine overall, if I loop is a good useable product, not just an aligator with big teeth.
    I think we should look at
    - Manufacturing quality
    - Weight
    - Breakdown size
    - Portability
    - Set-up & tear down time
    - Robustness
    - Total cost vs what you get.
    Each given a rating of one to 5 stars
    Any others?

    AA5CT likes this.
  8. OH8STN

    OH8STN Ham Member QRZ Page

    Hi Dale
    I don't need an apology and don't role that way. Didn't take any of this personally so no worries. The thing I try to accomplish is sorting through all the marketing mess and misinformation put out by companies and their proxies.
    For me it doesn't matter which loop is better or worse, or a compromise here, but better there. What matters is the amateur radio community gets the right information. I have not looked at your website yet, but if those bold claims are still there, then one could say yours was an empty apology.

    Nevertheless, your apology is accepted. I am still going to acquire a W4OP loop at some point to put yours and LNR claims to the test. Then give it away on my channel or donate it to a deserving club.
    kind regards
  9. W4OP

    W4OP Ham Member QRZ Page

    If you want to email me privately (QRZ address is fine), we can excahnge some thoughts on antenna testing- there are some pitfalls and I have done this professionally.

    Dale W4OP
  10. OH8STN

    OH8STN Ham Member QRZ Page

    The funny thing about this thread is, yesterday after the frustration of reading how heartless ham radio manufacturers can be to one another, I needed to wind down. So I went outside to the patio with my 817 and one of the loops which doesn't work. I had a very nice 2.5w psk31 QSO into italy.
    That's not uncommon, but that "first time" feeling you get after doing something people tell you isn't possible with the gear you have yet, I do it almost every day, Digital QRP! The proof is right there, even if everyone says no.
    AA5CT, KI6TRA and WU3U like this.

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