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FCC Report and Order Posted on New Rules

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by AA7BQ, Dec 19, 2006.

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Page 26 of 31

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KC7GNM Ham Member QRZ Page

[b said:

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 24 2006,02:02)]

[b said:

Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Dec. 22 2006,14:50)]

[b said:

Quote[/b] (ae6jc @ Dec. 23 2006,19:39)]K4JF said in part:

------

I have also advocated that we get a new Novice license (without code), and have strongly supported the idea of Elmering, even advocating that it be required before one can apply for Extra.

------

If implemented, the "Elmering" requirement would not allow for outliers. .... snip.... for space...

Three years later, I still tap KG6BOV and others for the benefit of their knowledge and experience. But, why should I or anyone else be required to document having been "Elmered" as a requirement to sit the Amateur Extra examination?

Food for thought.

Wishing you and yours the very best, I remain...

Rodger, AE6JC
Click to expand...

While I agree that "Elmering" is a good thing it would be very difficult to maintain that sort of database for proof. Cheating would run rampant, just for upgrades. My ideas would be something similar to the Militaries "Time in Grade" requirement... say minimum 2 years as Technician to up to General then, 3 years as General to up to Extra. which would be simple to maintain using existing databases. this would insure that each person would at least learn the proper methodology of radiology.
Click to expand...

Actually, the major reason I advocate elmering as a requirement (while recognizing the documentation problems) is to get hams thinking - and to try to break down the barrier between the OFs and the newcomers. Giving them a common goal.

Elmering is a noble and necessary part of ham radio, in my opinion. I would never have gotten so much out of ham radio without W4KMK and W4WQK. I think we need more of it, and that was the reason to encourage it. And I only advocated it for the highest level. Again, should one be at the peak if he/she hasn't helped other hams on the way? I think not.

But of course we need to get the newcomers to realize that there is something to be gained from those who have done it.

Distance should not be a problem to a ham, especially a ham with internet access.

But it HAS served part of my purpose for putting it in there - it has gotten some of us to thinking.... and that can't be a bad thing.
Click to expand...

Instead of elmering why not make each license class a time limit between getting each level. For instance, everyone should start out at tech. They cannot take the General or Extra test at the same test session. 1 year must pass before they can take the General test and then 1 year after that to take the Extra. That means at least 2 years of operating on the air before a person can achieve the highest license class of Extra. This in my opinion would work out great. As it stands now with the new ruling techs would get hf privs on limit bands and they would have to operate at least a year before getting any more bands. This procedure would stop this instant Extra stuff most of you guys are talking about. Also I would make the tests harder. Maybe make Tech a 50 question test. General 75 and Extra 100. Make the tests a mixture of fill in the blank and multiple choice. Make the questions relate to todays rules and regulations, not 20 years ago. This would satisfy everyones need and still not test a mode of Ham radio called CW.

KC7GNM, Dec 24, 2006

#376
KC7GNM Ham Member QRZ Page

Deleting the double post.

KC7GNM, Dec 24, 2006

#377
K4JF Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

[b said:

Quote[/b] (ae6jc @ Dec. 23 2006,00:32)]K4JF said in part:

------

Actually, the major reason I advocate elmering as a requirement (while recognizing the documentation problems) is to get hams thinking - and to try to break down the barrier between the OFs and the newcomers. Giving them a common goal.

Elmering is a noble and necessary part of ham radio, in my opinion. I would never have gotten so much out of ham radio without W4KMK and W4WQK. I think we need more of it, and that was the reason to encourage it. And I only advocated it for the highest level. Again, should one be at the peak if he/she hasn't helped other hams on the way? I think not.

------

Not everybody is good at mentoring, and I do not think that demonstrating mentoring skills should be a prerequisite for achieving the Amateur Extra, any more than it is a requirement for achieving the General Radiotelephone Operator License (GROL), with or without the radar endorsement.

That said, I ran a Technician course for my Troop in September/October of this year for four Scouts and a leader. One Scout did not take the Technician test owing to a scheduling conflict, two Scouts failed by two questions and were offered an on-the-spot retake (but declined), and one Scout passed the Technician test and failed the General test. The adult passed both the Technician and the General test.

The two Scouts who failed to pass intend to do a retake in February. The adult, who holds the FCC GROL, intends to take and pass the Amateur Extra test at that time.

Together, all of us intend to train a majority of the Troop 808 members to the Technician level, so as to enhance our ability to provide community service (Camarillo Christmas parade, Camarillo Greekfest, etc.), communicate whilst in the field (including VHF mountaintopping and HF NVIS), and serve in the wake of a major emergency (like "The Big One"). We hope to train some of the Scouts who want to take more advanced training to the General level, probably with basic Morse Code send and receive skills.

It also looks like the American Legion in my area is tapping me to work on their "Radio Commission". I would like to get the resources to put together one VHF/UHF "go kit" and one HF "go kit" similar to the ones the ARRL made up.

The Legionnaires are probably going to get tired of hearing from me:

"Remember, without training, these "go kits" are nothing but great big paperweights."

In any event, I have at least gotten two people into the hobby, hopefully with many more to follow.

Merry Christmas!!

Wishing you and yours the very best, I remain...
Click to expand...

Of course not everybody is good at mentoring, Rodger. I never said they are. By the same token, not everyone should be an Extra, either. I don't see a conflict there. But I do think that helping other hams should be one of the hallmarks of an Extra.

Obviously, you are Extra material, you've already qualified in the mentoring area. )

Merry Christmas, and a happy and prosperous New Year to you and yours.

K4JF, Dec 24, 2006

#378
N0KLU Ham Member QRZ Page

[b said:

Quote[/b] (ae6jc @ Dec. 24 2006,06:03)]N0KLU said in part:

------

Merry Christmas Roger, Tell your Scoutmaster "Thank you for your service to our country" for me next time you see him.

------

Merry Christmas to you also, Mike!! Wilco.

And as they used to tell us in primary flight training at Pensacola:

"You can say 'roger' and you can say 'wilco', but not together. You can say 'over' and you can say 'out', but you can't connect them with the word 'and'. And you can NEVER, EVER, say, 'roger, wilco, over and out!!' Only Sky King can say that. He doesn't even let his niece Penny say that on the air, and since she can't, neither can YOU, Ensign!!!"

Wishing you and yours the very best, I remain...

Rodger, AE6JC
Click to expand...

My apologies I see I miss-typed and left a "D" out

it should have been Rodger, not Roger, My bad.

N0KLU, Dec 24, 2006

#379
AE6JC Ham Member QRZ Page

K4JF said in part:

------

Merry Christmas, and a happy and prosperous New Year to you and yours.

------

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you, also!!!

Wishing you and yours the very best, I remain...

Rodger, AE6JC

AE6JC, Dec 24, 2006

#380
W1LWT Ham Member QRZ Page

WAnted Used KEYS..

THEY MAKE good REBAR material for cement side walks!

W1LWT, Dec 25, 2006

#381
W1LWT Ham Member QRZ Page

I wonder if a troll a KEY behind the boat with one do I want it close to the bottom or top to catch a fish...??

W1LWT, Dec 25, 2006

#382
N0KLU Ham Member QRZ Page

[b said:

Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Dec. 24 2006,08:11)]

[b said:

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 24 2006,02:02)]

[b said:

Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Dec. 22 2006,14:50)]

[b said:

Quote[/b] (ae6jc @ Dec. 23 2006,19:39)]K4JF said in part:

------

I have also advocated that we get a new Novice license (without code), and have strongly supported the idea of Elmering, even advocating that it be required before one can apply for Extra.

------

If implemented, the "Elmering" requirement would not allow for outliers. .... snip.... for space...

Three years later, I still tap KG6BOV and others for the benefit of their knowledge and experience. But, why should I or anyone else be required to document having been "Elmered" as a requirement to sit the Amateur Extra examination?

Food for thought.

Wishing you and yours the very best, I remain...

Rodger, AE6JC
Click to expand...

While I agree that "Elmering" is a good thing it would be very difficult to maintain that sort of database for proof. Cheating would run rampant, just for upgrades. My ideas would be something similar to the Militaries "Time in Grade" requirement... say minimum 2 years as Technician to up to General then, 3 years as General to up to Extra. which would be simple to maintain using existing databases. this would insure that each person would at least learn the proper methodology of radiology.
Click to expand...

Actually, the major reason I advocate elmering as a requirement (while recognizing the documentation problems) is to get hams thinking - and to try to break down the barrier between the OFs and the newcomers. Giving them a common goal.

Elmering is a noble and necessary part of ham radio, in my opinion. I would never have gotten so much out of ham radio without W4KMK and W4WQK. I think we need more of it, and that was the reason to encourage it. And I only advocated it for the highest level. Again, should one be at the peak if he/she hasn't helped other hams on the way? I think not.

But of course we need to get the newcomers to realize that there is something to be gained from those who have done it.

Distance should not be a problem to a ham, especially a ham with internet access.

But it HAS served part of my purpose for putting it in there - it has gotten some of us to thinking.... and that can't be a bad thing.
Click to expand...

Instead of elmering why not make each license class a time limit between getting each level. For instance, everyone should start out at tech. They cannot take the General or Extra test at the same test session. 1 year must pass before they can take the General test and then 1 year after that to take the Extra. That means at least 2 years of operating on the air before a person can achieve the highest license class of Extra. This in my opinion would work out great. As it stands now with the new ruling techs would get hf privs on limit bands and they would have to operate at least a year before getting any more bands. This procedure would stop this instant Extra stuff most of you guys are talking about. Also I would make the tests harder. Maybe make Tech a 50 question test. General 75 and Extra 100. Make the tests a mixture of fill in the blank and multiple choice. Make the questions relate to todays rules and regulations, not 20 years ago. This would satisfy everyones need and still not test a mode of Ham radio called CW.
Click to expand...

That would be a good start.

N0KLU, Dec 25, 2006

#383
KY4XF Ham Member QRZ Page

I still favor CW testing. Oh, and yes CW is a DIGITAL mode. CW just isn't binary. It is trinary. The third part of the equation being duration. Most computer science majors studying "fuzzy logic" circuits would agree that on, off, and duration are the major elements of such a system, or so I have heard from those more knowledgable than myself. I think the FCC shot themselves in the foot with this one and just sent us 200 years backwards technologically (if we don't study operation modes that are duration dependant, we may lose a very valuable technology in the future). I think the no-coders are the true luddites. However, that is my personal opinion. It is not right or wrong, just an opinion.

KY4XF, Dec 25, 2006

#384
N1DVJ Ham Member QRZ Page

[b said:

Quote[/b] (kf6snj @ Dec. 25 2006,09:57)]I still favor CW testing. Oh, and yes CW is a DIGITAL mode. CW just isn't binary. It is trinary. The third part of the equation being duration.
Click to expand...

Actually, it IS binary. It's present or not present, only two states. You're confusing the time domain (which would be I guess analogous to digit placement value) as a state, which it is not. Yes, the time domain does impart information, but it's not a 'state'.

The problem is that a lot of people want to insist that something that can have multiple different conditions but the data only have 2 'states' is still binary.

OK, is that PCI card in your computer binary data? Or not? I'll even further clarify it. How about data bit 0? Just one bit. Is that binary or not?

Were you aware that PCI has '3' states? Yep, 3 states, to send a 2-state data bit. But the data bit is STILL binary.

N1DVJ, Dec 25, 2006

#385
AE6IP Ham Member QRZ Page

[b said:

Quote[/b] (n1dvj @ Dec. 25 2006,12:00)]

[b said:

Quote[/b] (kf6snj @ Dec. 25 2006,09:57)]I still favor CW testing. Oh, and yes CW is a DIGITAL mode. CW just isn't binary. It is trinary. The third part of the equation being duration.
Click to expand...

Actually, it IS binary. It's present or not present, only two states. You're confusing the time domain (which would be I guess analogous to digit placement value) as a state, which it is not. Yes, the time domain does impart information, but it's not a 'state'.

The problem is that a lot of people want to insist that something that can have multiple different conditions but the data only have 2 'states' is still binary.

OK, is that PCI card in your computer binary data? Or not? I'll even further clarify it. How about data bit 0? Just one bit. Is that binary or not?

Were you aware that PCI has '3' states? Yep, 3 states, to send a 2-state data bit. But the data bit is STILL binary.
Click to expand...

Alas, you're confusing an implementation of Morse code, with Morse code itself.

Morse code has five symbols:

dit
dah
intra-character space
intra-word space
inter-word space

There are many ways of encoding Morse, one of which is textual:

- .... .. ... / . -. -.-. --- -.. .. -. --. / .-. . --.- ..- .. .-. . ... / ....- / ... -.-- -- -... --- .-.. ...

and the four symbols for it are

-
.
(space)
/

whereas a straight forward temporal encoding uses two symbols: mark and space.

Morse code is not binary any more than decimal is binary. But just as decimal can be represented in binary, so can Morse code.

4, 0100, ....-, 1010101011 and 00110011 are all ways of representing the concept 'four'. (They are, in order, decimal, binary, morse-as-text, temporal-morse, and ascii)

AE6IP, Dec 25, 2006

#386
KI4KFW Ham Member QRZ Page

[b said:

Quote[/b] (kc8zgw @ Dec. 19 2006,14:34)]When? I want to be a part!
Click to expand...

If no one answers you it is on New Years eve night.

KI4KFW, Dec 25, 2006

#387
KI4KFW Ham Member QRZ Page

[b said:

Quote[/b] (KE7GGV @ Dec. 19 2006,17:38)]The funny thing...that I am sure that new people....will realize...they will have a small segment of 10M..to do SSB Phone...that is fine...but when you are a TECH upgrade....you have CW...alloted on bands..so my question is....if they want the CW gone for testing to be on HF...are you going to use CW....so CW..is not going away....just the requirement..I am No-Code Tech....just passed element 3....and planning to go upgrade...

Here is what I think.....that the new to be HF operators(like me)....should
have skills...and though it will be opening up...to the no-codes and
such...they need to take responsibility....this is not a duck
shoot/open season...but a very serious thing....and not taken
lightly...

I passed my Element 3....I still plan to learn and use CW...inspite
of the change...I am a tech now....but as a to be new person to
HF....we do need to demonstrate..like in other countires when they
dropped the CW...I can understand things change with time and we
progress...and the new ones like me need to be held
accountable....and just because we are handed this with little
effort...we need to thank the other operators who paved the way and
worked very hard for this....

Again I am very greatful for this...though CW is learnable....it
will take time..and I want to be responsible...for this
privlidge....I am looking forward to this...I do plan to use CW..and
I can see why it is used in many ways..I apoligize for those who can
be jerks...and not see the picture and I can see those who feel it
will be CB radio...

Ok new ones or to be new ones...we need to show respect and earn
this...and not take advantage....inspite being easier...THX DE
KE7GGV-AAR0AJ..

73 TO ALL...

gaules@comcast.net

Gerald Gaule
73..KE7GGV/*AAR0AJ/T(tech)-Gerald R.Gaule Albany Oregon
145.290(-) (no tone)-WA7ABU Repeater
http://www.qrz.com/callsign/KE7GGV
ECHOLINK NODE # 283278
http://www.echolink.org
*Oregon Army M.A.R.S. callsign..I thought this was funny???..but ironic....

Subject: FCC Announcment

Washington D.C.-

It was announced today that Kellogg's and the Federal Communications
Commission
have signed a pact to issue Amateur Radio Licenses on specially
marked boxes of
Corn Flakes.

In this unprecedented move the FCC believes this will not hurt
amateur radio but
allow all individuals to receive an amateur radio license without
having to
demonstrate any skills with the exception of being able to use a
pair of scissors
to cut out their operating permit from the breakfast cereal box.

Kellogg's spokesperson commented that they were proud to have been
selected by the
government to be the issuer of licenses for amateur radio in the US
and hope to
soon make an agreement with other cereal loving countries. They also
expect that
will be issuing certificates of achievement for DXCF for confirmed
contacts with
100 corn flakers...or should the CSCE..be printed on Cracker Jacks boxes...LOL...KE7GGV...
Click to expand...

No CW is not going away because the test element is. Keep practicing and start off with simple CW contacts Like copying the senders call sign and sending a 55x report and your location. That is a great way too start CW contacts without having too pass a test.

KI4KFW, Dec 25, 2006

#388
W3RCB Ham Member QRZ Page

The FCC action, without a public hearing, makes me ill.

W3RCB, Dec 26, 2006

#389
K7JEM Ham Member QRZ Page

[b said:

Quote[/b] (W3RCB @ Dec. 25 2006,18:54)]The FCC action, without a public hearing, makes me ill.
Click to expand...

It's probably best no "public hearing" happened. The FCC would see us as a bunch of fools, on both sides.

The FCC proceeded the same way with this as with every other issue of similar nature. Call for petitions, NPRM, and R & O. This has been thoroughly vetted, all arguments have been made and considered, then the decision was made.

End of story and debate.

If you guys don't like it, you can petition for a change back to 20wpm code and written tests about vacuum tubes and superregen receivers.

Joe

K7JEM, Dec 26, 2006

#390

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