ARRL Proposal to Give Technicians More Operating Privileges

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by NW7US, Apr 10, 2019.

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  1. AC0GT

    AC0GT Ham Member QRZ Page

    That's likely true.

    I didn't claim you were, only that you fit a similar profile.

    I passed the testing required at the time, which is all anyone can say. Your "work" was also something that even then children not even old enough to drive would pass. There's no "work". There's no "earned". There's only a license as specified by the government. Amateur radio isn't a club, it's a government construct. If you want a club that people have to "work" to enter then create one, and set the standards for entry as you like.

    Right, you are not mocking any one. Okay, if you say so. I'm bitter over this because it's comments like yours that are driving people away. If people keep getting mocked for a supposed lack of skill then they will go where they are welcomed. Everyone starts somewhere. It appears your memory faded on what it means to be young and inexperienced.

    You mean like not calling them lazy for not upgrading? Calling this proposal a bunch of Technician license holders looking for a "freebie"? That kind of bitching?

    There's two ways I see to fix the problem of newcomers not upgrading. We can change what privileges Technician has, or we can rip up the current licensing and start over. What has me "argumentative" is a failure of too many to see what Amateur radio looks like from the outside. We have a license structure for Amateur radio that was created in the 1950s and has only had patchwork changes made since. The calls for nothing to change isn't going to work. Something needs to give. We can give those with Technician a reason to upgrade by giving them bits and pieces of freedom to operate on HF, or we can expect Technician to grow and everything else to shrink.

    They outnumber you. You can make suggestions now on changes or wait and have no say in the matter. It appears you'd rather have no say. Which is fine by me.

    That's fine, I'll just make my point to the rest of the readers and use your comment as a launching point for my comments.
     
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  2. N0NC

    N0NC Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    N0NC said: I am also out numbered by the no code extras I'm sure.

    "That's likely true."

    No likely about it I'm sure it is so.

    N0NC said: I'm not upset about hams " losing the 11 meter band" as you put it.

    "I didn't claim you were, only that you fit a similar profile."

    I at one time had a CB license issued by the FCC. I used 11 meters like I use 2 meters now to talk to people locally. The 11 meter band was reassigned to CB years beofe I was licensed, so no ankst there.

    As for what did I work for , I passed the novice, tech, general, and advanced including 5, 13, and 20 wpm code test back in the day before they published the question pool for everyone to study and get an extra licemse, and then get on QRZ to ask how to hook up thier radio, or why their store bought antenna dosen't work. How about you?

    "I passed the testing required at the time, which is all anyone can say. Your "work" was also something that even then children not even old enough to drive would pass. There's no "work". There's no "earned". There's only a license as specified by the government."

    True, and they just ask you to demonstrate a sdmall amout of knowledge before they grant you you the privileges."

    "Amateur radio isn't a club, it's a government construct. If you want a club that people have to "work" to enter then create one, and set the standards for entry as you like."

    Why are you so bitter and argumentative. I'm not mocking anyone, some of my best freinds are techs, most however have studied and up graded, the rest are being helped, and encouraged to do so.

    "Right, you are not mocking any one. Okay, if you say so. I'm bitter over this because it's comments like yours that are driving people away. If people keep getting mocked for a supposed lack of skill then they will go where they are welcomed. Everyone starts somewhere. It appears your memory faded on what it means to be young and inexperienced."

    I'm not mocking anyone or driving them away. I'm helping people that are interested to get licensed, and upgrade if that's what they want to do. Our little club in small town Iowa is made up of mostly new licensees, most got thier tech, and upgraded to general and one shot right up to extra,is teaching classes, and became a VE. I think they are doing great.
    I welcome new people to the hobby and attempt to help them to achive what ever level they decide to reach. Yes my memory may be fading (at my age , its kind of expected), but I remember how hard it was for me to get the code, theory was never a problem, I've always been interested in electronics. I convinced my self the code was hard, and sure enough it was.

    "Passed the tests required at the time".

    Yep me too. though I struggled for years with morse code, eventually I got there. I could have waited for about 25 years for them to do away with the code requirement, but look at all the fun I would have missed.

    I'm not mocking anyone, some of my best freinds are techs, most however have studied and upgraded, the rest are being helped, and encouraged to do so. The one tech locally that I'm a bit disappointed in has no interest in upgrading, and thats fine, if thats what he wants to do. However he's told everyone that he is just waiting for them to change the rules and give him HF privileges. All the people that took the tech class antd test have upgraded. Thats one out of about 20, so 95% upgraded. And one fell by the wayside.

    One of our newest hams is 14 years old, passed his tech then general. He does yard work in the summer and moves snow in the winter to earn money to support his hobbies, and such.

    "There's two ways I see to fix the problem of newcomers not upgrading. We can change what privileges Technician has, or we can rip up the current licensing and start over. What has me "argumentative" is a failure of too many to see what Amateur radio looks like from the outside. We have a license structure for Amateur radio that was created in the 1950s and has only had patchwork changes made since."

    And yet you, I, and thousands of other people have navigated our way through this outdated system to get to where we are today.

    "The calls for nothing to change isn't going to work. Something needs to give. We can give those with Technician a reason to upgrade by giving them bits and pieces of freedom to operate on HF, or we can expect Technician to grow and everything else to shrink."

    Those with technician licenses already have a reason to upgrade, that what we've been talking about! You and I just differ on the approach to that end.

    I really don't want to argue with you about this Kurt, I think we both want the same thing, to expand amateur radio and keep it alive. I just think the way to do it is to teach, mentor, encourge and motivate people new to the hobby.

    By the way, I'm back from ignoring.

    73, Kurt and have a good day.
    Chuck
    N0NC
     
  3. AC0GT

    AC0GT Ham Member QRZ Page

    Then why reply at all?

    The exceptions do not define the rule.

    I'm seeing the ARRL in a near panic on the poor rate of people upgrading. A quick look at Hamdata.com tells me that about one out of five licensed Amateurs are Extra. Is that "enough"? It seems the ARRL doesn't think so. I expect that they have considerable demographic data that is putting them in a panic.

    You say the path is to "teach, mentor, encourge and motivate people new to the hobby" and that will be required. The ARRL wants to see more people upgrade. Their theory on a lack of upgrades is a lack of exposure to HF. I suspect that there is a lot of truth to that. You believe any additional privileges is a "freebie", something that people with a Technician license should upgrade to get. Okay, what about those new to Amateur radio? The privileges granted for a license is largely arbitrary. You seem entirely focused on how these changes reward people for laziness but appear to ignore how the current privileges impact how newcomers perceive Amateur radio and those that " teach, mentor, encourge and motivate".

    Something is going to change on licensing. I believe it will happen sooner than later. You can claim nothing needs to change but if you are not in the minority already then you will be soon. It gets real hard to teach, mentor, and motivate when those coming to Amateur radio see on a band plan large chunks of spectrum allocated to CW-only. What message does that telegraph to them? It tells them that HF equals CW, CW equals HF, and so anyone not interested in CW is not interested in HF. You can teach, mentor, and motivate people all you like on this but it's going to fall on deaf ears if there's no change in the licensing to prove this to them. If there's more to HF than CW then why is it that newly licensed Amateurs cannot operate any mode other than CW on many HF bands? To answer that exposes how messed up the licensing is today.

    It's not enough to teach, mentor, and motivate because the rules as they actually disincentivize people from upgrading. As evidence I will show that more than half of licensed Amateurs have not gone beyond Technician, and after more than 20 years we still have many thousands of people that have not upgraded from Novice and Advanced. What is the metric that shows all is fine with licensing today? That we get about one out of five people upgrading to Extra? That does not look like a successful system to me. I'd think a successful incentive licensing system would have 90% reach Extra.

    Incentive licensing is broken. It's time to fix it. We can drop this nonsense behind the idea of slicing up the bands to create an incentive and find something else, or we can dispense with an artificial creation of incentives and recognize that any gain in privileges is an inherent incentive, basing licensing on safety and skill than some arbitrary bits of spectrum that apparently newcomers find of little value. Will we still need to "teach, mentor, and motivate"? Of course. But we can do it in an atmosphere that isn't demotivating because of some messed up licensing from the 1950s. It was a bad idea then and it is a worse idea now.

    Again, I'm seeing people upset about some "freebie" and ignoring the effect these changes will have on motivating newcomers. If this is a problem then we can grandfather Technician and create a new license, one that isn't so demotivating to people. Do people overcome this demotivating licensing we have? Yes, but that doesn't mean it's not broken.

    If we are not seeing 90% of licensed Amateurs upgrade to Extra then the system is broken. That's my metric for a successful "incentive licensing". Since that is not what we see then it is broken. If anyone disagrees then what metric should we use to show success? Think of it this way, if a high school can't get 90% graduation rates then is that a successful school? Our efforts to "teach and motivate" would be far easier if we ripped up the current licensing and started over.

    Create something for 2050, not keep what was made for 1950.
     
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  4. K6LPM

    K6LPM Ham Member QRZ Page

    IARU convene with the ITU every four or seven years or some such cycle and holding convention at every other ITU for the purpose to propose and ratify treaties that affect the administration of the amateur bands. I am sorry to be vague on the exact specifics of when and what policies were ratified for our North American Region. But it is not the FCC that drafts or proposes the overall international guidelines for what is considered the "world bands" or shortwave bands. I am sure that given the time and research this is easily obtained. For reference start with ITU and IARU. It is thru this international diplomacy effort that we as hams were given use of the WARC bands sometime in the late or early 80's.
    As for techs being given HF priviledge without demonstration of competency via a written exam? That is a false statement. Technicians were indeed tested for priviledge on the HF bands. The various Elements of examination requirements required for the Novice License required the knowledge to show competency that the examinee could operate a station properly and soundly without causing disruption to other services and understood the reasoning of the rules and regulations and how they applied to his operation. Novices were allowed priviledges on the HF Bands The novice bands were exclusively CW and as such a proficiency of a miserably and incessantly slow 5WPM was also required. The next Element (was it element 3A?) The 3a element is the written test for both the technician and general class licensee. Passing the written 3A was what was needed to get your tech ticket and it was designed to show a proficiency for both the rules/regs and operating principals that applied to competently operate on the HF and VHF bands. To upgrade to General a code test of 13wpm was required. (In my opinion most all casual half competent cw operation takes place at between 13 to 15 wpm with most closer to the 15wpm area for good copy. Actually 5wpm is tougher than 13). So by default the tech already had tested for HF priviledge and even up to the time of novice enhancement technician class required 5wpm code and already did have HF priviledges. So nobody was just given anything without some sorts of pertinent demonstration of competency thru testing for the privledge allocated.
    Whatever came about after no code testing debacle I was not active during such time.
    ITU did indeed have mandate to cw proficiency below 30 mHz just as they do over international freq. Allocations. Above 30 mHz with exception of certain space freqs the various international nations have much more autonomy to manage their own spectrum use allocations.
    Concerning Brand New Spanking GreenHorn inexperienced Extra Class operators?
    I have no problem that they have successfully passed the requirements to achieve their ticket. But I do question if we are somehow failing in the institution of elmering these new ranks of extra class operators. Surely the role and definition of the license classes has changed and probably does need some sort of reset. It is a bit of a culture shock and runs 180 of the traditions I was brought into the ranks of ... The extra class operators was a class of distinction within the amateur community. So much more than obviously passing today's test of competency. The Extra Class operators traditionally was the one of enough experience and technical knowledge that others in the amateur community could turn to for assistance with technical challenges and advice on practical operations. The amateur extra was a seasoned veteran.
    Many newly intiated Extras make very novice and down inexperienced behaviours and unbelievably unknowledgeable questions for things they have absolute no understanding ...
    No question is a bad question but PLEASE have some interest to be at least somewhat knowledgeable of the subject that you ask. Please do some basic research. I am unsure what the question pool is like but try to have some more interest in what and why they are asking the questions. If you are on fire for ham radio you should be on fire to learn how and why of the question pool. Please ask questions but know what you are asking for.... It really is crazy thing... But I hold nothing against a newbie if they legally got their ticket, I am excited for you and welcome you! Now let me introduce you to some history, traditions, and the ins and outs of proper ham radio ettiquitte ...( Someone can teach me to spell and use better grammar when I write!
     
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  5. K0UO

    K0UO Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    Apr 10, 2019 was when this post started

    Nothing has happened yet.
    So after 2 years I think this thread could be shut down.


    73 from,

    The K0UO " Rhombic Antenna Farm" 2 miles of wire in the air
     
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  6. K3XR

    K3XR Ham Member QRZ Page

    There is a certain amount of entertainment value with some of the posts. :D
     
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  7. K0UO

    K0UO Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    I Agree. .... .. HI

    I also think every Tech in in the U.S. could have upgraded in 2 years/ especially since they were forced to stay home during the pandemic.
    I know several who were very academically challenged/ who easily upgraded.
     
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  8. K3XR

    K3XR Ham Member QRZ Page

    I would not discount the fact that some may be content where they are.
    If you own a keyboard and a mouse there is so much information available it's difficult to imagine you couldn't apply yourself and make the upgrade. I know some folks have other demands on their time and that can make things a bit more difficult. Now you also have code testing out of the equation.
     
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  9. AC0GT

    AC0GT Ham Member QRZ Page

    Today there are questions for HF operation for Technician. There was a time when the Technician written test was identical to the General written. Somewhere in between those times the then combined General and Technician question pool was split down the line of 30 MHz, General tested on material below 30 MHz and Technician tested on material above 30 MHz, and there were no questions specific to HF operation to get a Technician license.

    Again, today the Technician question pool tests for HF operation, and in the past they were tested on HF operation as Technician had the same written test as General. But for some period in the middle people could have had HF privileges and not show competency for HF specific operation on a written exam. There's an argument that regardless of band the rules are clear enough that having passed whatever the test was at the time would have been sufficient. The ARRL and other VECs thought there was enough truth in the complaint that they made an effort to correct this oversight.

    If you don't believe me then maybe I can dig up something from the ARRL website to show this was the case. If you consider this a minor oversight and of little consequence then I would agree. Either way the people behind the question pool committee owned up to this oversight and corrected it for future question pools.

    Nobody is going to spell check you on FM or SSB.
     
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