SERA Wants All Repeaters Toned!

"I think we need a universal edict that toned repeaters must retransmit the tone they use on the input. ."

Well, a universal suggestion anyway.. That is probably a good idea, but again, not an edict.. Ed

 

Sounds like another case of Big Brother (or want to be's) thinking they know what is best for the masses.

 

Some observations:

It appears that SERA has taken an unwise step.
They have "kicked the hornets nest".

PL has both good points and bad points

The stated goal of eliminating interference will not be entirely
accomplished with SERA step.

I would argue that far more important is that repeaters OUTPUT PL
tones so that monitors can avoid listening to all the intermod
"braaps".

Very few repeaters ANYWHERE OUTPUT PL.
I would like to see this change.

There is nothing that says input PL and output PL must be same.

A few repeaters do something cool, when the repeater goes into
emergency mode, the output PL changes so that people who
only want to hear it during emergencies can set recieve PL.

PL is not all bad. Out here we have a repeater with 4 recievers
and 1 transmitter. This fills some bad holes. To make it work,
each reciever has a different PL. This means it can fill 4
memories in a radio. People howled over that 1 I tell you but
it did work and it sure beat "falling in holes".

I note the post about "paper repeaters".
If its not on the air within a year of coordination, the pair goes
back in the pool. If SERA doesnt have the nerve to do this,
then I support you in disbanding or cleaning out SERA.

How can they ccordinate a paper repeater? It has no PL !
They arent following their own rules !

All SERA can do is refuse coordination to repeaters non tone
equipped. This is the ONLY legal action they can take.

Hollingsworth does not get involved unless there is a violation of
FCC regulations. Unless there is willful interference or refusal to
correct accidental interference, Hollingsworth cannot take action
is this situation.

If SERA actually threatened to turn repeaters into Hollingsworth,
then this threat is an empty one and justifies "cleaning house" in
SERA.

Coordination is not required for repeaters legally, but in cases
of conflict, coordinated repeateres get precedence.
This is where SERA has everyone by the "short hairs".

A new repeater that cooperates gets coordinated and then can
usurp thhe established one.

Out here in CA, a 2 meter rig is useless without PL.
Ive picked up some very nice radios for fox or APRS use for
almost nothing because they lacked PL.

Forcing all repeaters to require PL input would force many hams,
some on limited incomes, to replace otherwise perfectly working
gear. They wont be happy. SERA officers can expect some
rude responses (pinned coax, broken antennas and worse).

Upgrade kits are available for some radios but having to choose
1 tone restricts which repeater one can use.

My guess is that this policy will drive many off VHF permanently.
This is both stupid and bad for them to do.

Last I knew, only 3 repeaters in the entire state of Montana had
PL.

If all the repeaters took a stand and refused to implement PL,
and those with it turned it off, SERA would have to either back
down or yield to a new coordination group.

There may be the option of voting people off of SERA.

I wonder what would happen if all the repeaters installed PL,
got coordinated, and then quietly "allowed their PL to fail"
until coordination renewal came up.....

In the long run PL is a good thing, but these guys are being
stupid about how they are implementing it.

Playground bullies only stop being bullies when someone
stands up to them.

I wish you all well out there, and good luck.

 

If SERA were nice guys, they would ask the radio manufacturers to resume production of "optional" tone boards (at least for the newer rigs) for a year or two.

Of course, that still would not help the traveler.

As for the earlier comment about the tone burst used on European repeaters, that is NOT common on even newer rigs made for the U.S.  I bought a brand new top-of-the-line multiband Yaesu HT 2 years ago prior to a trip to Scotland, precisely because the manual said that it included the 1750 Hz tone burst.  It did not, and when I contacted the manufacturer, they said, basically, "Tough.  Buy the 'E' version."

 

I have never made a post on the QRZ forum but this issue is one I just can not pass up without speaking on. Recently as President of the Delta Amateur Radio Association witch covers a large part of North West Mississippi I had the unpleasant experience of dealing with the SERA coordinator for Mississippi and another Mississippi group concerning co channel interference witch our group has always contended that the interference claims where frivolous and unfunded, certainly during band openings I could rotate my 13-B2 at 70 feet and find another repeater on my “clear channel” and be as Arnold would say “a girly man” and file a complaint for interference. This is the reason that SERA’s new policy for tones on all repeaters is necessary, to stifle the continuous wining from just a few which feel that they own a particular freq.and do not want to here any intermod or band opening interference on there “clear cannel” and make it hard on all. By the way clear channel is something I used to hear on CB radio in the 70’s. As for SERA I believe there is only one member of our group that is also a member of SERA and I do not think that SERA can expect any of our other group members to become members of SERA. Personally I do not want to pay for there annual banquet, have a smiley face next to the DARA listing in there publication signifying full membership in there bogus organization. Boy I feel better now!

 

Here are some issues to be considered on some of your suggestions.

Having the repeater "beacon" ID every X minutes with a voice announcement of what the tone is will reduce the number of people who will monitor the repeater, especially at night.  Don't you want people to listen and be available? And in an emergency, is there time to wait for a beacon ID in order to get help?

Identifying in CW with the CTCSS tone is definitely the wrong approach. What percentage of hams today can copy 5 wpm code?  

Agreeing on a common tone for a geographic area makes some sense, until you realize that a traveler coming through Tennessee may not know that Tennessee is divided into 3 main geographic areas, East, Middle, and West Tennessee.  Then it is further subdivided into more areas such as Northeast Tennessee, Southeast Tennessee, etc.  The current SERA band plan assigns different tones for each geographic area.  You might be changing tones every hour and half to 2 hours as you drive through the state if you were aware you had entered a new geographic area.  I’m sure TDOT is not going to put a sign on the interstate saying “You are now leaving Northeast Tennessee and entering North Middle Tennessee.” If you assign 1 common tone to use state wide, you might as well be on carrier squelch if you are trying to solve "interference" from overlapping coverage areas.   The 1 tone approach does solve the problem of using "antique" radios as tone encoder boards can be easily installed in most of them at a reasonable cost.  But to make multiple tone encode available on the "antiques" can cost more and in some cases, may not even be feasible.  

Obtaining information on the repeaters in a state might not be as easy as some think.  SERA publishes a listing every quarter that is up to date with their database, but to the average ham traveling from outside of a SERA area, that listing may not be available. The ARRL repeater guide is not always up to date.   Yes, there are a few Internet sites that have some information but then you are assuming that all the information on the website was valid.  What if Joe Ham had to make an unexpected detour or changed his travel plans while traveling?  

Safety is compromised when driving if you have to figure out the sequence to turn on tone scan in your multi-menu radio.  And that only works if the repeater is in use so it can find it. What if it isn't?  Are you going to go through every one of the tones, kerchunking the repeater with each one until you find it?  That’s more time spent looking at the radio and punching buttons instead of attention to driving and more valuable time lost in an emergency.  You might as well forget the radio, grab the cell phone, and hope you have service.    

For a repeater owner, CTCSS tone presents some different problems.  In an intermod situation where the repeater transmitter is mixing and one of the products is the receiver input frequency and both encode and decode tones are the same or one of the other mix signals has the same encoded tone as the reciever decoder, the CTCSS decoder on the receiver may decode it and hold the transmitter up.  A feedback loop is then established.  

Many have touted the benefits of using CTCSS about “removing” the beeps, squawks, and other garbage that is coming through the repeater.   If that stuff is being blocked out by tone, what effect is it having on your receiver sensitivity at the site by raising the noise floor?  The service monitor may say you have a .25 uv receiver sensitivity but have you ever used a “lossy T” to inject a signal into the feed line with the antenna attached to actually determine what your receiver really can hear?  Maybe someone else has a serious problem that needs to be addressed.  I currently have 2 GMRS repeaters that when terminated into a 50 ohm dummy load show around .5 uv for 20 db quieting but when connected to the antennas, this rises to 1.5 to 1.8 uv for 20 db quieting because of a UHF TV Channel 14 transmitter nearby.   The tone does an excellent job of keeping the reciever quiet and the TV transmitter does an excellent job of making the reciever deaf.

And finally, the interference issue of overlapping coverage areas of repeaters is not usually a repeater problem.  The users use higher power than necessary and the closer spacing the coordinators have gone to aggravate the problem more.  I didn’t see anything about SERA asking users to lower their power when using repeaters or use directional antennas in outlying areas.  Education for users would go a lot farther in helping reduce interference than mandating we all use tone.

For those of you that are attending the Shelby Hamfest this weekend, I urge you to visit the SERA booth and voice your opinion.  I've also heard that someone at Shelby will have a "No Tone" banner up at their space in the flea market.  Let's all remember this is still a hobby and not let our emotions lead us into doing something we could go to jail for or regret later.

73,

Bob N4FV

 

Why?? In some cases using CTCSS on a repeater may help in situations where two machines share the same pair and may interfere with one another. Isnt this the reason CTCSS exists in the first place? But in a rural area, whats the point? Repeaters located in cities where intermod and other interference may be present, then I can understand using tone. As another poster mentioned however, using tone may be a "bandaid" in some cases and the machine may be quite deaf due to strong front end overload. Tone would only keep the squawks and beeps off the air but it sure wouldnt help the machine hear any better. I feel it should be left up to the repeater owner(s). As for emergency comms, who has time to fiddle with programming their rig in times of disaster? An open machine is simple to get into and requires just a couple of button pushes to access. I think SERA may have overstepped its bounds on this one. I see no reason to tone ALL repeaters for no reason other then to appease a select few SERA officers.

 

I tend to be conservative and don't like changes.  

However, most of the repeaters in this area ( Northwest NC,/ Southwest Virginia ) are now toned and the interference levels are much better than several years ago.

Tone access is not perfect, but has proved very useful in reducing interference.

Why fight progress ?

de Bill

 

I have no problem using a toned repeater for general use. There are several replies that state good options and opinions (especially about emergency group monitoring and access BUT....the one comment I hear repeated and have a problem with is:

How is a poor traveler going to program a tone while driving.

The solution is easy. He/she applies the brakes, stops the car, looks up the repeater in the ARRL directory (or alternate repeater guide for area), programs the tone  and then proceeds on their merry way.

If they are traveling in the area a lot, store the repeater split and tones and whatever else is needed into a memory and select it when needed.

All this assumes the following:
1) Users read the manual and knows how to program their radio.
2) They have a current repeater directory or list for area
3) They want to operate on the repeater bad enough to stop the car and safely update the tone info for access.
4) Their radio can provide tones as needed (if not, maybe it is time to upgrade the older gear.)
5) And of course they need to know the tone to enter (I like the idea of a voice IDer with tone announcement every 10-15 minutes at first, longer after a year or so of tone use).

I can hear the boo's now for #4 above. "Why should I have to upgrade my gear to use a repeater that I could use before with no problem". I don't know, let me think about this one!!! Why did I have to change my car's abilitiy to run on unleaded versus leaded gasoline when leaded became unavailable nationwide due to government regulation change. Oh yeah, it was called progress (be it good or bad - you ain't got no control over it unless you make the policies)!!

If the repeater goes tone, you better too or find a new repeater to use (providing you can find one without tone use).

Gene KI6LO  

 

Change... is just change. It is NOT progress unless there is an improvement. Avoiding a discussion on the merits - or lack - of unleaded gas, requiring an unnecessary change on a repeater is not progress. A tone, when there is an interference problem and the owner wants to use that particular solution, is one thing. Mandating a change when there may or may not be interference is simply not justifiable.

So do NOT call SERA's ruling "progress". It is not. It is mandating change which has very negative consequences. Whether the negative outweigh the positive is a decision for the person or persons on the scene, not a distant "coordinator".

 

All repeaters in Metro areas SHOULD be toned, provided that:
All toned repeaters in that area use THE SAME TONE. Different areas should use different tones.  

A SINGLE tone (DPL?) should be established NATIONWIDE that can access ANY REPEATER ANYWHERE in an emergency reguardless of the primary tone frequency.

W9WHE
Proudly supporting the ARRL boycott!

 

It sounds "POLITICAL" to me. If such a thing happens then "SERA" will be after UHF. I wonder some people don't mind their own business and leave ham radio alone. They have about got this hobby so screw up now ,till a guy (or gal) might as well go to 11 meters where no one gave a darn.:laugh:

Don
W0DON    

 

If the ARRL has its way, HAM RADIO WILL BE JUST LIKE 11 METERS!

 

My blood pressure is up....

Tone is a tool. How it is used should be up to the repeater owners. The repeater owners are the one's that have alot of time and money invested.

On the whole, I feel that all repeaters should be 'carrier operated squelch' for ease of operation. UNLESS, the machine is coordinated as private, the radio shot is a 'link' or temporary 'fill' (search and rescue type communications) or there is an interference problem.

TONE should not be used as a 'work around' to saturate an area with repeaters. Spectrum is finite. Not everyone that WANTS to put up a repeater will be able to in certain areas. Sorry. If you REALLY HAVE TO put up a machine, migrate to the higher bands.
OR
Here is a novel idea...SUPPORT the local machine! Who cares if you don't like the group that hangs there. If it is an open machine, put your money (or time) where your mouth is (support) and use it! How many of you have put up a machine because of differences? Now, look at all of the quiet machines....did alot of good, eh? Grow up; practice the Amateur's Code. BTW, did you try simplex first?

Frequency coordinators should realize they dispense authority that is delegated to them. Please read:
AUTHORITY= RESPONSIBILITY

LEAVE THE POLITICS AND BACK SCRATCHING AT THE LOCAL LODGE!
Furthermore....just because a repeater owner/club doesn't reply 'in three days', coordinators should not declare 'null and void' the previous operational parameters of a given machine. AND then require that legacy machine (that has been on the air for xx years) to conform to 'the new standard'...tone. This is BULL. (PNW, are you reading?) Maybe that HAM was too busy and could not repond. Maybe he was spending quality time with his family, tasked more at work, or serving his country (gee, is that from the Amateur's Code?)

 

Should a repeater coordinator make every repeater in the areas of their influence comply with something that a majority of owners feel are not in the best interest of their repeaters because the coordinator has made a few mistakes (coordinated a repeater to close to another) and wants to fix it so any more mistakes won't be so obvious? Yes, its TONE vs NO-TONE but the owner/trustee should decide. Free choice is all we are asking.

The average repeater owner or club has several thousand dollars invested in equipment, infrastructure, and many man hours of "public service" in keeping open repeaters going and have provided the services of those repeaters free of charge to hams over the years. I've yet to receive 1 cent from SERA toward the operation of my repeaters yet they want to tell me I have to do something that was never part of my original coordination agreement to begin with. I might have to spend more money just to appease them or else I will risk losing my coordination status? Let's face it, SERA has about 59 grand in the bank according to information on their website and I’m in the hole cause ham repeaters don’t make any money and legally can’t. I own the land, infrastructure, and equipment, pay my property taxes every year, turn in my “data sheets” as I am supposed to, and now they tell me to comply with their new policy and shut up or “else” when I don’t even have a problem?

The SERA leadership won't even come out and say we are listening and evaluating the responses from the owners/trustees! My state director responded to my email that he was more interested now in working on other issues and he would stand with his decision. Sam's website has been pretty consistent with only 20% of repeater owners/trustees favoring mandatory tone access. I guess it's about time to do what an angry taxpayer does to a politician that votes for an unwanted tax increase.