Police Question Ham Radio Use

Give me a break, after what happened 9/11 you should be happy that the cops checked on what you were doing!!! My wife was in the WTC on 9/11 and if some cop had just asked or stoped one of the hijackers and asked what they were up to maybe just maybe the WTC would still be standing.

GET OVER IT!!!!!!!

Bob N2IXA

 

Wow, what a lot of responces here!
I am wondering, in this day and age when many school kids have cell phones, why someone with an HT would be suspicious? Talking into an electronic device held in your hand is very common even here in Oregon.
Haveing said that, I have to relate an incident at Detroit MI Airport 5 or so years ago. I went thru metal detector and the inspector pulled out my HT and asked what it was. I told her it was a 2M radio and Fed. Gov. does not allow me to let her mess with it. I would gladly show my license. She said to go on. lol.

 

I see somewhat of a culture (life definition) clash here.  The answer that you are a licensed Amateur to someone who asks you why you have so many radios is perfectly legitimate.  If you are a Ham -- You have a lot of radios.  This is part of the lifestyle.  How many of us count the number of radios we have with us unless we are given a reason?

To someone who doesn't know Hams the answer may sound evasive!  The problem is that Amateur Radio has become rare enought that what is direct and normal to us is evasive to someone else.  Why am I sitting on a river bank with a portable rig and babbling away?  Because I want to!  Why do I want to because I an a Ham!

The problem is that if we aren't doing anything particular with our gear other than carrying it at the moment, the most direct answer that comes to our minds (I am a licensed Amateur Radio Operator.) is wrong.

Here is an "official" example of this.

Greetings
   Fox hunting is getting more popular every day. If you know of anyone in
your area who could benefit from this forwarded message, please pass it
along. It was sent to me on the Section Managers Reflector. Ernie Howard,
W8EH, Middletown,  has already agreed to pass it along in the Southwest Ohio
area.
Joe Phillips, K8QOE
Ohio SM
------------------
--
"Mark J. Duff" wrote:

>

> >From:          Mark Duff/KB1EKN
> > President, Boston Amateur Radio Club
> > Chief of Operations, Hingham Fire Department
> >
> >To:              Phil Temples/K9HI
> > Section Manager
> >
> >Cc:              Mike Neilsen, Rob Macedo, Frank Murphy
> >
> >Subject::     Fox Hunting, Public Safety Notifications
> >
> >Date:          05-14-2002
> >
> >It has come to my attention from the State Fire Marshall that recently in
> >Eastern Massachusetts, a club was conducting a fox hunt and left the fox
> >near a public shopping mall. Although it was a totally innocent act,
> >someone not familiar with the box the fox was contained in notified

> authorities

> >and created a problem.
> >
> >I strongly suggest that any club conducting fox hunt's, notify public
> >safety officials that a fox hunt is taking place in their community and

> where

> >the fox is located. It would be very easy for any public safety official to
> >consider the fox to be a “Device” and treat it accordingly. A photograph
> >was included with the memo and there is no question in my mind that a

> person,

> >not knowing what the fox is, would consider it to be a radio-controlled
> >bomb. The events of 9/11 have considerably heightened public awareness of
> >anything that looks suspicious. Many times, the fox is hidden in strange
> >locations and this further complicates the problem.  A simple
> >notification made to the local public safety officials may eliminate a

> major public

> >safety response and prevent our noble hobby from receiving any bad
> >publicity.
> >
> >[Note: A memo was sent too every fire department in Massachusetts about
> >this.]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >____

>


--------------------------------------------------------------------
ARRL Ohio Section
Section Manager: Joseph J. Phillips, K8QOE
k8qoe@arrl.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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--

WITH THE CURRENT STATE OF EVENTS AND OUR CULTURE

!!!BEING DIFFERENT IS DANGEROUS!!!

 

Ok just to add this................GROW UP PEOPLE! IF A COP GAVE ME AN ATTITUDE I REALLY DON'T CARE, SO ENOUGH WITH THIS WRITING DOWN THEIR BADGE NUMBERS ECT.


GROW UP!

 

It isn't the attitudes that are the problem. They like, opinions and things too fierce to mention, are owned by everyone. It is untoward, unnecessary, undeserved, and unfriendly actions that are the problem and often the result of a bad attitude.

Being questioned -- no biggy.

Being questioned with a hostile tone -- a nuisance.

Being detained for an appreciable period of time (>15 minutes) for no apparent reason. -- a small problem

Being detained and having equipment seized (even if subsequently returned) and search before or after questioning, again without apparent reason -- a larger problem.

Any actions in excess of this are a large problem and should be delt with sanely, quietly, legally, and at the highest levels attainable. Violations of the law are not to be ignored when perpetrated by the enforcers of the law.

If someone can't understand your need (desire) to carry multiple HT's just because you feel like, and further can't understand the reason of I do it because I can, they should have a very good reason to go beyond the initial asking of why.

What of the people that carry a pager, a company cell-phone, a personal cell-phone, and a company radio are they to be arrested and interrogated?

If I wish to load my person with multiple transceivers and walk around, whose concern is it other than my family, myself, and my chiropractor?

 

Excuse me...   he is innocent.  He was doing nothing wrong.  Police Officers who treat people poorly, assuming that everyone is guilty, and coming across in his tone trying to intimidate are WRONG.  PERIOD.  In this country, last time I checked, we are innocent until proven guilty.  It is the officer's job to know that and to act like that.  If the officer gets to a point in his or her career where they have to treat everyone with an intimidating tone, then that's when they need to retire.  That kind of police attitude turns the public against them.

 

I would like to thank everyone who has replied so far, whether critical or not.

Please let me clarify a few things.

1) I was really taken by suprise at the officers presence, and that he was using such a tone at my wife and I.

2) I thought that explaining that we were ham operators (and therefore not terrorists) was going to satisfy the officer, bearing in mind the recent events. Also, I spoke very respectfuly to him. You had to be there.

3) The officer continued to be rude. Realizing that this had turned into harrassment rather than a simple check, I felt as though I had to hold my ground. Even then, I was always respectful, but firm. Firm does not preclude respectful.

4) I felt that giving further information to the officer on his terms, would have been a de facto conferment of regulatory authority upon him. Giving in to such a thing before it officially exists, is a sure way of helping it to officially exist.

5) The subtle interactions and nuances of all involved are difficult to describe and offer for the groups consideration, and maybe my writing style did not convey them as well as I would have preferred. The dynamics of the thing are gone with that moment. Hindsight shows that I may have been able to handle it differently, had I been prepared. That is the reason for my initial post, to hopefully inspire others to pre-consider there response to a similar situation, as well as to resolve to defend our freedoms. If you can resolve to handle it better than I, before you are also caught off guard, then the post has done some good.

 

Either the policeman was an ASS or some facts were left out.
In this day and age with cell phones, (nextel speficily) and FRS radio's everywhere
why was the policeman concered about someone talking into a radio.

 

The officer was called to check us out by someone who phoned in. Also, I agree that there are so many with frs, cell phones and the like, that it seems weird that we would be singled out by the police. But we were singled out by a caller, not the police, and the police had to respond, it's just that he should not have responded like that.

 

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc0mdc @ May 13 2002,14:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's an undeniable fact that people will almost always question that which they do not know.  To see a cellular antenna on a vehicle is becoming normal, to see a number of items hanging off of a vehicle is intriguing to most.  I've had the opportunity to educate a number of people about amateur radio by answering their curiosities about the antennaes on my vehicle or the HT sitting on my desk in my office, and I do see this as an opportunity   In the past, anybody who was walking around carrying a radio was considered to be someone of importance or responsibility.  With technology allowing us to carry smaller radios, people will still be inclined to ask, 'What's that for, are you a cop?'  Truth is, while many of my friends didn't understand either, as the tornado sirens went off in our town a couple of weeks ago, they were calmed by the idea that I knew what was going on.  They realize now that my radio isn't about me being important, but it's about a hobby and public service.

Tim  kc0mdc[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I agree with you completely. We're in a major gray area as far as our hobby goes. People are slowly becoming more aware of various technological communications advances. Even just 10-15 years ago, someone carrying a cell phone was unusual. I remember more than once being asked "What's that?" as people spotted my Motorola 750 "brick" of a cell phone. Today of course, wireless phones are as common as tinted windows. More recently, I've fielded plenty of different questions as people spot my VX-5 on my belt. From the generic "What's that?" to some variation of "What kind of Cell Phone is that?". It's surprising to me how many people respond with blank expressions when I tell them "It's an Amateur Radio" or "Ham Radio". I get a lot of "Oh, is that kinda like CB?" which of course opens up the chance to try to explain Amateur Radio. I've found what works best is telling people that yes, it is similar to CB; however like the aircraft bands, or marine radio, or public safety (police/fire/etc.) radio, it is it's own service within the FCC. So many people still equate Ham radio to that guy down the street years ago, with the great big tower, and huge antennas that was interfering with the TV. The petite VX-5 just doesn't logically connect to the towers and all of the base rigs of 20-30 years ago. I get a lot of interest when I talk about how with a Cellular phone, you're looking at buying the phone for $100 give or take, and then $20-30 or more a month for service fees, and then I contrast that with the Amateur Radio, where you can get an inexpensive monoband hand-held radio for roughly $75, plus $10 for the testing fee for your license, which is good for 10 years, and can be renewed forever more at no charge. I show how I can contact a friend 15-20 miles away over one of the area repeaters, and talk about how many husbands and wives I know both have gotten their licenses, and use the radio to keep in contact with each other. I talk briefly about the RACES/ARES group I belong to, and how amateur radio is used as auxiliiary communications in disaster situations by fire and police and other public service agencies. 9/11 has given a golden example of Amateur Radio Emergency Communications in practice. A lot of times also mentioning the existance of features like the Autopatch generates interest as well.
Technology is progressing. 20 years ago,someone who owned a computer was looked at as the nerd who stayed inside all day and used the computer to try to break into the pentagon computer. 20 years ago, someone who was into ham radio was looked at as the nerd who stayed in all day and tried to talk to Japan and Mars. Today, a Personal Computer is as common as a TV set. However people still don't know much about Ham radio. It's our responsibility as operators, to show people what our hobby is all about.

 

Another person's ignorance is not my problem. Ham radio has existed since 1902 at least, thats 100 years. We have been internationally organized since 1914. That's 88 years. Plenty enough time for the police to wise up. Where I come from the local police are good for two things, collecting money from drug dealers, and directing traffic to the ball game, that's it. If you dial 911, they ask you if there is a body, no body, they don't show up.

Stand on your 1st and 4th ammendement rights. If you don't stand up for yourself, no one else will. That said, I have never run into a cop that didn't know what Amateur Radio was. I believe they deserve the same respect that they give to you.

 

I agree to a certain extent, that it is easier sometimes to simply say its a frs, to avoid tiresome discussion. In this case though, it was a policeman who was asking, and it's not right (or legal) to lie to them. I believe that we are required to show our license to any authority who asks to see it. I'm not clear on the details, but I believe it's in the FCC rules (which I'll look up now..) Whether or not that applies to only federal authorities, I don't know, but I think it includes the police as well, and I have no problem with any of that. I know that I would act that way anyway. Besides, what if he were to check it further, find that the ht is about 100 times more sophisticated than a frs, and then we have big problems. Now, why did this person lie? Now there is actually a good reason to be suspicious. Everyone can have a bad day, but the police have an even greater responsibility than most to keep professional, because their actions tend to have a big effect on the lives of everyone they deal with officially. It's a great pressure to have to function in their environment, and yet respond well to every situation, I know, as my father was a policeman for 15 years while I was growing up, and all of our friends were police families. Unfortunatly, when they don't respond well, usually someone is being violated in a way that would be considered illegal in another context. This, of course, adds to their pressure, but those who can do the job are rightfully very proud of it. This is where training can be of great help to the officer. I, and I'm sure that others also, don't like being treated rudely, as though it's not worth it to be proffessional with me, as though there are no consequences worth considering. I would never approach an officer with the attitude that he approached me with. I expect the same.

 

I have read this discussion with some interest. As a police officer and a Ham, here are my thoughts.

I will have to agree with the post (sorry, I don't recall who wrote it) that mentioned that the answer you gave is not what the officer was looking for. He asked, "What are you doing?" Saying that you are a ham radio operator did not explain what you are doing. From the way it sounds, a citizen called in you and your wife as suspicious persons. You were doing something the citizen perceived as out of ordinary or wierd. Folks are taught to call in such things to the police, and well they should. Most of these calls turn into nothing once they are checked out. This officer is sent to check it out. The answer you gave, whether you intended it to be so or not, sounded evasive. We are trained, taught, programmed, whatever, as cops to detect this and act on it. It is what we do, day in and day out. Deal with folks that are trying to be evasive about what they are doing. It sends up a bright red flag in our heads. It has to, our lives depend on it every moment we are on the street.

So, just plainly saying what you were doing would have been fine. You were talking on your amateur radio with your wife, if the cop wanted to know if you were licensed to do so or not, which he couldn't care less, he would have asked.

Going down to the station to "educate" them was a bad plan. It makes you look like a troublemaker, complainer and whiner. As for the officers conduct, it is not pearly white either. I always get out of my car and talk to folks cordially and friendly. Not hanging out of my window and yelling out the window. That is not the way to make friends and influence people. It is also tactically speaking a dangerous practice. You could have been someone up to no good and the officer would have been in a bad position to handle that sitting in his car with his seatbelt on.

Bottom line: it was a bad interaction on both your and the officer's parts. No big deal. Next time, be prepared with what to say and don't get offended if your asked questions. It is our job to ask, inquiring minds want to know. When someone is in your driveway poking around you car at 0300 and I ask them, "Hey, what are you doing?", you will appreciate it.

Gary KC5MEW

 

johnj

Whoa, there buddy!!!
I wrote my previous message prior to reading yours. I am sorry that you have had such a bad experience with the police not responding as you would like. Some agencies have problems, some have too many calls and not enough officers to send. Some officers have a major chip on their shoulder and act holier-than-thou all the time. But do not say that all police are only good for directing traffic, etc.
That is like saying all Hams are geeks with an antenna farm on their car, four HT's hanging off their belt, and wear big plastic pocket protectors in their shirts. (My apologies to my Ham brothers that this describes, it is just an analogy, I still like you).
Yes, stand up for all your constitutional rights and all the amendments. But, please, treat officers with respect all the time. Like our mothers said, "Two wrongs don't make a right." It is a tough job. It takes years off an officers life just doing the job. If the bad guys don't kill you, the stress, long hours, and heart attacks will.

Like someone quite familiar with the police once said...

...can't we all just get along??....

Gary KC5MEW

please take this in the good-humored spirit it was intended.

 

It was Jefferson who said "Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security, deserve neither freedom nor security".

I appreciate the policeman's post, and respect his office.
Please understand, that there are not enough police to provide the level of security required to prevent terrorism in this country, and if there were, then even the police I know would probably not want to live here anymore. There is no way to implement consistantly effective routine security against an unknown tactical offensive. Total intelligence must equate with zero privacy, just like in the military, where that sort of thing belongs. The police need the rest of us, especially hams, to supplement communications needs, and I am an active member of RACES, SkyWARN, and lately, MARS. Last week, I set up my radios in a police station, as part of a simulation of a Nuke plant emergency. The police liked the radios, and I had a chance to show them many things concerning ham capabilities. They all loved it. That is the sort of educating I was talking about, and they do really need to be shown.