NCVEC Files No-Code Petition

I'm with ya there N8CPA.... Isn't it amazing how some little no-code tech wannabee radio op goes around calling every one else morons when he doesn't even have enough smarts in his wee little pee-brain to know the history of the bands let alone pass a measley 5wpm test.... Amazing, just amazing....

W7WIK, I agree with you also.... Sad state of affairs this country is turning into.....

 

if the folks who have NOT passed the 5 word per minute MINIMUM morse code test would / could spend as much TIME studying and practicing for the test ( and eventually passing it ) as they do " whining and crying " here in this forum, they not only would have passed the test, they would be ON THE AIR in HF , talking to others who passed it. Look how much time you have wasted already, just in reading MY post, you should have been studying.

 

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kb9ojs @ July 30 2003,11:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again, Laziness and stupidity prevail over pride and virtue.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Nothing succeeds like success

BTW: Being raised Southern Baptist, I was always taught that pride is a sin.

I'm not picking on your post in particular, just commenting on those sentiments in general.

 

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kb9ojs @ July 31 2003,10:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N0SCC @ July 30 2003,19:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As Far as a Petetion, My Name wont be on it. and as far as I am concerned if the do away with the Code I hope the Written consist of the whole damn question Pool.

 [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
N0SCC,
  My name would not be on that petition either and I hope they make the tests for general and extra all essay.

This is not directed at you SCC, but I hope all of you (hams, VEC's, etc.)who think the code is outdated and needs to be abolished need to realize that morse code is a ham radio tradition. If they don't like the code, too freakin' bad. It's like NASCAR. NASCAR says that every driver must wear a Hutchins or HANS device if the want to compete. If they refuse to wear it or don't want to wear it, they are not allowed to compete. Code is the same way. If you want to operate on HF, you have to learn the code. If you refuse to learn the code, YOU CAN'T PLAY ON HF.

Again, Laziness and stupidity prevail over pride and virtue.


73's all de John Bunyan, KB9OJS Amateur Extra Class
 [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I think it's also worth pointing out that Amateur Radio preceded CB by 50 years. In that time it had already gone through its birth pangs, and developped it's protocols and language, based on CW, it's earliest "language."

Compare that to Citizens' Band, created as a result of WRC '47 (I'm not off by too many years--I don't have the source in front of me.). It went on line in 1958, was barely useful for twenty years, before it's ease, popularity, and lack of operator discipline rendered it all but useless. The FCC could not keep up with the task of enforcement--neither can it now!

There's the historical precedence for the destruction of a radio service that someone asked for. And, in many parts of the country, Amatuer VHF is now pretty much in the same condition, growing even worse since 1991. parts of 20 and 80, were bad eneough to begin with. Must we sacrifice the effectiveness of our voice allocations, simply because a block of publishers and manufacturers want to product? Must we give up non-voice modes to accommodate the hordes of people who only want a Part 97 CB?

Orignally, the n/c lobby only claimed a desire for U/V allocations. Once that was achieved, they claimed they only objected to the higher code speed. Having a 5WPM maximum requirement, they now petition for elimination of the element. Of course, this is something they've been aiming for since well before 1991. DON'T BELIEVE THEM WHEN THEY SAY THEY'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE MODE, BUT THE REQUIREMENT ONLY!. Some are already muttering about the eleimination of bandplans. These folks really are about banning CW, as on MARS and Marine Frequencies. Already, there's a sideband only band.

Enogh is enough! It's time to stop giving away Amateur operating privileges. Time to stop the slide of standards!

 

Without regard to which side of this argument you are on, let's set one argument straight.

This is NOT Fred's (W5YI) petition.  This is a petition sponsored as a result of a democratic process (as decided by a majority vote by its members) of the National Conference of VEC's. An organization that includes the ARRL among its membership.

Will Fred benefit from removal of the code requirement in amateur licensing?  Probably in the area of written exam study material, but just as likely, he will loose revenue from a loss of sales in code study materials.  Exactly in the same proportion that the ARRL will gain and loose revenue I would suspect.

As we bemoan the fact that the 'newbies' will not understand code, our grandfathers are still bemoaning what sissies we were for riding the school bus.

Change is the only constant (my apologies for the cliche).  Let's start a new thread on a greater challenge.  How will we integrate the new operators into our ranks in a way to make our service stronger?

 

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ke4pjw @ July 31 2003,12:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW: Being raised Southern Baptist, I was always taught that pride is a sin.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
"Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities."

The key word here is EXCESSIVE...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being proud of your accomplishments, and in the typical Christian belief, particularly if you have accomplished those things you are proud of to glorify their God.

Excessive may be defined as constantly bragging, boasting, and making one's self to be more than what one really is. Glorifying one's self rather than God.

I don't happen to belive the Christian teachings as a whole but parts of them do sorta make sense....

I get picture some of our whizbang Hams who wear 37 HT's on their belts and antennas on their hats... "LOOK at ME" is all they are saying... Usually done by those who have few real accomplishments... Those who have truly accomplished are usually much more modest... THEY don't have to prove anything... Their deeds speak for themselves, and respect is earned thru those accomplishments, not thru showing off...

Examine some of the great thinkers and doers throughout history and you will generally find them to be a very humble bunch... Mostly I suspect because they realized how much they really didn't know... even though they were way ahead of the rest of us...

Being proud of one's accomplishments is actually a quiet thing held within one's own self... EXCESSIVE pride is outward boasting of what little one has accomplished... BIG difference...

Just my opinion!

 

My Oh My,
Most of you guys should be proud of yourselfs talking down to the newer guys like you do ... Talking so big and bad about how great you are and are real hams because you learned CW.. My that must make you Great Hams. I wasn't going to post to this but I can't help it after reading it all.

I must say everyone has a right to how they feel and what they want to use on the bands .. And I defend the right that everyone has of free speach but man come on now I never heard so much one sided garbitch... We did it ! We had to do it ! I DID IT ! so what good for you I'm sure we all all happy for you and happy you enjoy using CW that is wonderfull.

I think the CW subbands need to stay many people love Cw and that is great I hope they use it forever if that is what they want to do. I have no problem with that. The problem I have is with all you people trying to compair HF to CB if they drop CW. What a Joke do you really think a person that would want to get on a band to make problems will study to pass a test and get a call to get on and do so ... NO WAY the people that will do that are people with-out a ticket and CW or No Cw is not going to stop that, We as Licenced Ham's will.

I know many many Hams that went crazy to learn Cw only to pass to get the ticket never to use it again why waste everyones time the VE's The FCC's the Radio Operator to do this Just because YOU DID IT. most could not pass the test again that are on HF right now inless they have been using CW. This is a sellfish closed minded type of thinking that I realy belive most hams are not like ... What about going out of your way to help new hams teach Elmer and so on no matter what they interests are is that a bad thing if they don't like CW?

If people want to learn CW and use it Great ! and they will if that is what they like, just because YOU DID IT so you don't care about others is a real same. And calling people names because they are having a problem with CW is is even worse.

At one time when CW was the main type of comunication it had to be tested people had to use it but not now ... Do I need to learn how to ride a horse before I get my drivers licence No so with all the modes avalible today why do you have to know CW to get on HF does it really make any sence today?

This should have nothing to do with if people are lazy or want everything for free like I see posted here it has to do with use ... are you going to use CW period if no you need not have to learn it ... Let alone have it a block for you to get on HF.... GEZZZ ok lets test on puting your computer togther and hook up digital modes and Ham programs ... Most of us do that but are we tested on it to get on HF NO.

Everyone needs to sit back and think about it ... times are changing we need to change and grow with them. I hope they drop CW the main reason is to see the reaction of you Die hard CW (HAS TO STAY) or the whole ham bands will fall of the world faces when you relize that you having some wonderfull QSO's with people and my god they don't know CW and there not some type of monster like you project them to be. If you ever come off the subands to chat. Ok I will get off my box now. Take care all and good luck and God Bless.

 

There are many arguments both for and against eliminating the Element 1 CW exam. I personally don’t have a problem with eliminating Element 1 from the General and Extra exams. What I have a big problem with is eliminating it without replacing it with anything else. What are we to do? Enclose ham licenses in Cracker Jack boxes? I am totally against giving out a freebee. It seems that ham licensing has been eroded and watered down through the years. If the trend keeps up, soon there will be one grade of license, shall we call it the “Operator” license. The requirements will be to pass a ten question multiple-choice test on rules and regs, and operating procedure.

Think about it. Back in the late seventies and early eighties, you needed to demonstrate a minimum of 5 WPM CW proficiency just for the Novice or Tech. Novices were allowed only CW privileges on small HF sub-bands. Techs were allowed the same, plus all modes including phone above 30 MHz. There was no phone privileges for Novices and Techs on 10m. The Tech written exam was comparable to today’s General written exam, which is why Techs who were licensed prior to 1987 were grandfathered up to General as of 2000 with only an application. Back in those days, if one wanted to use phone on HF, a 13 WPM code proficiency exam plus a more difficult General exam than today were required. Advanced required the Advanced written exam plus proof of at least a General license. Extra required a 20 WPM code proficiency exam, the Extra written exam and proof of at least an Advanced license.

Today, things are watered down and cheapened. Before there were VE’s, the FCC administered the exams. There were books to study with and practice for the exams, but you never saw the exact same questions that were in your study guide. You had to know the material. That is not so today. Anyone with half a brain, who knows absolutely nothing about radio and electronics can buy a Gordon West Q & A manual with the entire question pool, memorize the questions and answers, and ace any amateur radio exam. It came to the point where the only thing that an applicant did any real work for was the CW exam. The FCC might as well issue amateur radio licenses the same way CB licenses were issued in the late seventies – fill out an application and mail it with a check, and use first, middle and last initial with your zip code for your CB callsign until your CB license arrived with your permanent callsign. In those days, it was $4. Now, ham licenses are $12. The FCC is just looking for an easy way out of not having to administer and enforce radio services. The FCC totally abandoned CB in 1981 by eliminating the need for a license. Is amateur radio going to follow suit?

If this proposal goes through, the first thing I see happening is the total death of what is left of 2 meters. After all, once all these Techs take an easy upgrade, they will all be on HF, not 2 m. I remember what CB was like in the late seventies and early eighties. There was such a flood of new users that even the expansion from 23 to 40 channels did nothing to relieve overcrowded band conditions. Fact is, I distinctly remember the rumors about another expansion to 60 channels, which never came to pass. With the flood of Cbers, a 2 MHz CB band still wouldn’t have been enough to relieve overcrowding. I see the same thing happening to the amateur bands, once the CW requirement is removed, if there is nothing put in place to replace it. The flood of Techs will flock to HF. More and more Cbers, who want a ham license but are not willing to learn CW will come on board. The amateur bands will suffer the same overcrowded conditions that CB is known for. In the early eighties, I remember 30+ S9 noise levels, not only on channel 19, but on all channels while the skip was at its height. With the cheapening of a ham license, more and more obnoxious LIDs will do their dirty deeds, as the loss of a piece of paper that they hardly even worked for would be no loss. Its like “Oh well. I lost my ham license. No big deal. I guess I’ll just go back to CB. No need for the Galaxy and the leenyer anymore. Now I have a 756 Pro to use on 11m and the freeband!”

Like I said at the beginning of my post, I have no problem with eliminating CW testing. Just replace it with something else. Some ideas that I have are:
--Use the current General exam for Technician (elements 2 and 3). Use the now defunct Advanced exam for General and make the Extra exam more comprehensive. Also, increase the size of all question pools to a minimum of 1,000 questions. Make the applicants learn the material. I have an electronics background. I’ve been through electronics school in 1981-82. I also obtained an FCC Second Class Radiotelephone License with Radar Endorsement. There is no amateur radio exam that I took that came even close to the depth with which I learned my material. My school calculations regarding circuits were more complicated and much more involved than anything I saw on an amateur exam. I’m talking about such things as Thevenin’s Theorem, time constants and phase angles, among other things. I’m not suggesting that the Extra exam be made as difficult as what I had in electronics school, but it should be deeper than it is now, especially if the CW requirement is to be eliminated.

--Institute a requirement that applicants for amateur radio licenses and license upgrades take a short course and receive a certificate of completion before being eligible to take any license exams. The course would run 2 hours a session for 5 sessions. It would be free except for the cost of materials, such as books, pamphlets and such, and administered by the same VE’s that give the license exams. The material would give the applicant a background in what he/she would be tested on at the license exam. The Certificate of completion would be issued after taking a brief exam. Hence, the applicant would have to actually learn the material instead of just memorizing questions and answers.

In the past, an amateur radio license had to be earned, and was something to be cherished. We must get back to that. It’s become too watered and dumbed down. I do agree that CW is no longer needed as a testing requirement, because it is not the only mode, or not the main mode of communication anymore. CW testing was essential in the early days of radio, because it would have been foolish to grant someone a license to get on the air if they didn’t know CW. This is no longer the case. I agree that we must advance with the times. However, I feel that no-one should be granted a license or a license upgrade unless they know something about radio and electronics, and unless they work for their license. For those that argue that we are all appliance operators, that nobody builds their own equipment anymore, I’m sorry. Ham radio is ham radio. If you don’t want to learn about radio and electronics, there are other options for you. You can use 11-meter CB, MURS, FRS, GMRS, cell phones, tin cans with string, yelling out the window and anything else to communicate with, but leave ham radio to us radio and electronics buffs.

I wish to declare that I don’t use CW, but I had to learn it for my upgrade to General. I am glad that I had to go through this requirement. It gave me much more of a sense of accomplishment than if I would have only taken just the written test for General. When I upgraded to General, I put most of my effort into learning and practicing CW. I bought the Gordon West General book and hardly used it. I even feel like I wasted my money on it. Before even buying the book, I was passing practice General exams on qrz.com without the stupid book. Without the CW exam, my upgrade to General would have been a joke. My upgrade to Extra with no code test was anticlimactic, after the General. I wouldn’t exactly say that the Extra exam was a joke, but I worked a lot less hard for it than I did the General, as it was the CW test that I was working for, not the General theory. As it is today, the written test for Technician is a big joke. Lets not give away licenses in Cracker Jack boxes. Lets raise the standard for amateur radio, not lower it any further.

 

As I said on another posting on this subject, "Dumbing down Amateur Radio." What's wrong with learning 5wpm? Besides that, there IS a no code HF band, 11 meters!

10 years ago, I mention on a local repeater on the debate of the 50MHz and above no code Tech Lisence. If you give these people alittle, they will want more! Why does everything has to be handed to you people on a silver platter? Have you ever been told, you have to earn on what you have or get?

I have also read some your articles that this is a push from the Amateur Manufactures. Have you ever visited their web sites? They sell other radio items besides Amateur Radios. I also beat Amateur Radio is only a small part of their net sales. I am talking about companies like Kenwood, Icom, Yaseu, Cushcraft, and others.

I say, "Keep the Amateur structure the way it is."

73,
Andy KF4JQD

My vote is NO!!!

 

As for this proposal by the VEC's, don't you all understand what their motivation for this is? Its MONEY!!! After all, imagine all the license study manuals that ARRL AND W5YI will be selling once the CW requirement is removed!

Another ham indicated that the losses in revenue from code practice material would offset any gains from the increased sales of license study material. I disagree. I believe that there is much more $$ to be gained from the increase of license study materials than the loss of code practice sales. Dropping the code requirement will not only result in a flood of Techs upgrading, but an even bigger flood of CBers who would just love to get on our amateur bands and "shoot skip" as they call it. The only thing discouraging the masses of CBers is the code requirement. For those CBers who are serious about radio, its no problem to work for a license and pass a 5 WPM code test. But lets not open the flood gates and allow every yokel who has just enough brains to key a microphone access to our bands.

 

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w7com @ July 30 2003,12:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">kc7jty:</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Regular contact with nocode.org will keep the person who is REALLY interested in this issue up on the ARRL's latest antics.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not finding much info on this at the nocode.org site.  Can you give us a bit more info on this or point out some URLs?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Go to nocode.org. Click "Articles" then look for ARRL headings. You'll have to scroll down a bit.
KC7JTY

 

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cbbasher @ July 30 2003,15:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Put KD7RHE into the callsign lookup and look what comes back. N0ASS...somehow I think that's appropriate...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
N0ASS. Look whos talking mystery boy.
KC7JTY

 

A sad day for amateur radio. Looks like the "gimme a free ride" crowd finally won.    Gee, its so hard to learn a lousy 5 wpm! Oh well, when the bands get overrun with countless lids who cant even solder a PL259 then its time to move on to a different hobby I suppose. Why bother to have any testing at all? Lets just give away free tickets since they arent worth the paper their printed on anymore. What ever happened to putting forth an effort to actually LEARN something? Heaven forbid we should actually expect new hams to know anything other then how to turn the rig on and off and key a mike. Pathetic....real pathetic. Having a ticket used to give a sense of pride and accomplishment, now its just a worthless piece of paper that anyone can get by simply memorizing answers and soon you wont even have to learn any CW. Do we really need to make it so easy that even a braindead chicken can get an extra? A very sad testamonial to modern day society.

 

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K9HL @ July 30 2003,16:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc7jty @ July 30 2003,18:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w7com @ July 30 2003,11:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">                                     I've built broadcast stations and had a radiotelephone license, did you?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
That doesn't mean crap compared to passing a code test!
If you don't bow to the code your kind are not wanted in amateur radio..........broadcast stations or not.
                                           KC7JTY[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
KC7JTY...
While I agree that W7COM's comment you cited is apples and oranges to the subject being discussed, I must come to his defense after your comment that it "....doesn't mean crap compared to passing a code test."  Have YOU ever taken a commercial exam?  I have.  I took the exam years ago when the FCC had first and second class radiotelephone licenses...now called the General Radiotelephone license.  I took the exam twice to pass the second class exam and I failed the first class exam the first time I took it...and I've aced the novice, general, advanced, and extra class exams on the first try....I was a general when I took the commercial exams.  There is no comparison to an amateur exam.  Commercial exams are MUCH harder....and learning the code was much easier than both.  So don't go where you haven't been.

I also take offense at your comment that "...your kind are not wanted in amateur radio..."  Are you saying you speak for all of us??  You've been a ham for 7 years...W7COM has been a ham for 10....I've been a ham for 38 years.  That makes you low-man-on-the-totempole.  You don't speak for me, and after 38 years, I don't even suppose I can speak for any other ham.

Now, for my general comments on this subject.  In 1965, when I was a novice, novice licenses were good for one year only.  It was a chance to improve your code speed by getting on the air and increasing your speed to 13 wpm so you could become a general class.  I made it finally, and the day my general class license came in the mail, I threw my code key into a box and it never saw the light of day for 25 years...and only then to help my wife and son get their novice licenses.  I have never liked CW, and I support the FCC doing away with the requirement.  

I DO support making the written exam more difficult.  When I was studying for my novice and general, the license manuals gave you a question and then gave you a DISCUSSION of the answer...not the actual answer.  It forced you to KNOW the theory, practical use, and the FCC regulations.  We didn't memorize key words in a pool of questions and answers like the Q&A manuals give today. THAT is what has dumbed up amateur radio.  Case in point, a few years ago a guy saw my ham call license plate at a store and he introduced himself by saying he had just passed the technician test and was waiting for his license to arrive.  Then he floored me by asking me to come over to his house and set up his station for him!!  He readily admitted that he had only studied the Q&A manual, and had no idea how to set up his station.  I did go to his house.  He presented me with a VHF antenna still in the box and a roll of coax with no PL-259s.  Then he promptly went back into his house.  I made him come back out and made him help me...along with an explanation of why we were doing what we we were doing.  Again, THAT's what's dumbed up amateur radio....not the lowering or doing away with the code requirement.  

In summary from an old timer: Code....do away with it as a requirement, and leave a smaller portion of the HF bands for those who want to use it.  Written exams...make them progressively harder by class.  Give technicians 2 years to upgrade or lose their licenses.  AND, make generals and extras KNOW what they're talking about by doing away with the memorization of question pools.

73,

Ken K9HL[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Do I have to say I'm being sarcastic every time? I'm 101% no code. Will always be. I'm stating the way the bone head status quo boys feel when I say only code matters.
KC7JTY

 

The NCVEC petition is the result of a dirty, underhanded, back-stabbing type deal - obviously led by W5YI. Bart Jahnke from ARRL (the largest of all the VECs, and a traditional leader in its decision-making) couldn't vote, or even participate much in the discussion because the ARRL Board has not yet decided what position to take.

Bringing the issue to a vote in that circumstance was clearly a well timed political move designed to stifle the opposition. It worked.

But it ought to be seen for what it is.