Why not do APCO-25?

Excellent point and absolutely correct.  Therefore the "interoperability" comment advocating APCO-25 does not apply.

D-Star vs. APCO-25 for Amateur Radio should be on the merits of the system within amateur radio ONLY.  PS radio is irrelevant to the discussion of the mode for ham radios.

This discussion should be moved back to ham radio.  Talk about how either would improve ham radio.  I have seen nothing in that vein yet.

 

Hi, I enjoy using comercial equipment. I would like to see apco 25 being used. I currently use a Saber with apco 25. I think we will see more digital stuff soon enough. For me I would like to see both d-stars and apco 25 used. Just think of the possibilties that we will have once these modes are implemented. Its time to move ahead. I am all for it...
73
n1wpn

 

All well and good. There is a "cool factor" because it is new. But where is a reason to go to it?

 

The "Why?" question has been asked again.  I think what people are forgetting is the variety of aspects the D-STAR standard covers.  I also think that people are forgetting that Amateur radio is a global hobby.  The readers of this website would seem to be from the USA, Canada and the UK.  However that is just a (perhaps large) portion of the Amateurs in the world.  Other countries have different laws concerning Amateur radio, ones that may prevent the use of certain modes available to us.

One aspect of D-STAR is digital voice.  APCO-25 is one alternative.  The pros and cons of that mode has been tossed about many times here so I won't repeat them.

Digital data is another aspect.  There too many Amateur digital modes to discuss here.  One thing about the many modes is that few are designed for the greater bandwidths available on the microwave bands.  There is 802.11 but that is not designed for Amateur use, but seems to suit people well.  The multi-megabit per second and multi-megahertz channel it requires is often overkill and is likely to interfere with someone in a populated area.

What I think will be the primary means that D-STAR will get adopted is not the digital voice but the Ethernet interface that is part of the standard.  D-STAR defines a radio as a terminal adapter, often given the misnomer of a "modem".  Just like a cable "modem" or DSL "modem" a high speed D-STAR data "modem" is actually an adapter between two network interfaces.

802.11 does this as well but you quickly run into the same problem as you do with APCO-25.  No manufacturer will make an 802.11 terminal adapter with Amateurs in mind.  Sure I can buy a new 802.11 adapter or APCO-25 radio and convert it for Amateur use but it will always be a hack.  It will work but it will always be sub-optimal since it is bound to a standard designed for commercial or consumer use.  Hack the hardware or software too much to make it more optimal leads to the possibility of losing compatibility.  Lose that compatibility and you lose the reason that you used it in the first place.

My best answer to the "Why?" question is that what currently exists just did not meet the needs of some very motivated and creative Amateurs.  If you feel the need to ask why then perhaps you didn't think hard enough, your needs are well met with existing modes, or any one of a million other reasons.

One question I asked before but didn't get a satisfying answer is where can one purchase APCO-25 radios?  Digital voice modes interest me.  If I was to choose between APCO-25 or D-STAR I'd have to choose D-STAR only because I know I can easily get my hands on a compatible radio.

 

any bendix king radio dealer

dph portables (IMBE aka astro) are avaible in several configurations

 

Huh?

Right now with DStar, you limited to ICOM, and ICOM only. With IMBE radios, you have Motorola, MA/COM, Racal, and a bunch of other manufactures.

 

So, I'm limited to Icom, why should I care? At least I know I can walk into any of a number of Amateur radio stores and buy a D-STAR radio off the shelf. I can't do that with APCO-25 radios, at least to my knowledge.

Along with being able to buy it off the shelf I do not have to do any special modifications or programming before using it, which I would have to do to get an APCO-25 commercial radio to work on Amateur frequencies.

 

Again, Bk dph radios they can transmit and recieve imbe (motorola Astro-what you are calling p25)




off the shelf 136-174 no software needed

 

Do these Bendix King dealers have a website? Or a store front in the Midwest? I'm trying to find where I can even get my hands on an APCO-25 radio and keep coming up blank.

I did some web searches on Bendix King and came across some vendors of their equipment. The prices were through the roof and I saw only one radio that even mentioned APCO-25 compatibility. That radio was listed with "call for price and availability" which was not very helpful in trying to compare bang/buck ratios as compared to D-STAR.

I appreciate the suggestions of how to obtain APCO-25 radios but I need more. Those of you that have APCO-25 radios already may think it is trivial to find one but not for me. I think I represent a large portion of the Amateur community in that respect. I can imagine an Amateur doing a little web surfing and coming across this discussion or one similar concerning digital voice modes for Amateur radio. They are going to read about APCO-25, D-STAR, and G4GUO. It won't take long to find out that Icom and AOR sell D-STAR and G4GUO digital voice systems respectively. It will take only slightly longer to find a vendor and selling price. A few mouse clicks and a MasterCard number later they can have one shipped to them by UPS ground in a matter of days.

APCO-25 is not being targeted toward Amateur radio users. Therefore vendors of APCO-25 systems don't advertise where Amateurs are likely to view them. As I type this I see several advertisements flashing, blinking, and moving on the left of my browser window telling me where I can get Icom radios, which would include the D-STAR models. How many of those vendors sell APCO-25 radios? I would wager that number is zero.

If APCO-25 is going to compete with D-STAR, or even gain more than a marginal use in Amateur radio, it is going to have to be available just as easily. From where I sit that availability is lacking.

 

Um, no.

Most, if not all of the current production IMBE radios are full band, or pretty close to it. No modifications are needed.

I think you need to go out and do some research and not listen to some of the nay sayers out there. You can buy a IMBE radio from the approrpiate dealers. Not all dealers are authorized to carry all the equipment.

Despite rumors, any Joe can pick up IMBE equipment, you just need to find the right shop, and have a good checkbook for the really good stuff (that most amatures don't need/use anyways).

 

And isn't that latter comment you made exactly the point when comparing D-Star and APCO-25? Why would an amateur spend kilobucks on a commercial radio which includes a lot of stuff not usable in the amateur service? Even used these radios are much more expensive than radios designed for the amatuer service cost new with D-Star. What advantages for amateur use does APCO-25 have over D-Star? If the only use is to monitor public service frequencies then an appropriate scanner will do that. So far when comparing the two, for amateur use D-Star wins over APCO-25.

Mike
WA3KYY

 

Are you sure about that? Can you point me in the direction of the applicable laws? The way I read the Radiocommunication Regulations, it specifically states that I may communicate only with another amateur station in an emergency:

This is quite obviously an Icom 208H with a different mic.

 

this is directed at Mike-

Ever driven through downtown Rockville or Silver Spring and had you mobile rig go deaf from intermod? Even at rt28 and 355 my spectra doesn't get a drop of intermod. This is why I went with commecial gear years ago.

For me, astro gear was simply the next progression.

If icom can make a digital radio that has the quality receiver my Motorola's have-I'll be happy to try it out.

However, if they are the same quality as thier current line of ham gear-I won't be throwing my money away.

 

I would like to try out APCO-25. Colorado State Patrol uses that on their statewide 800 MHz system.

 

ON another note (this is not an attack on any particular person) saying you have astro/imbe gear for the purpose of interop is utter bs. Especially since most of these systems are trunked.

If you have/want astro gear for the purpose of playing/experimenting-that's great! But don't mask it woth some crap about public safety.