Email Robots are coming to RTTY and CW!

Can't satcom equipment be brought in just as easily, perhaps even easier, than amateur radio gear? In Houston (yes during Katrina) my satcom phone was similar in size to the older cell phones. A big brick. But it was self contained, and I carried extra batteries and various chargers.

Especially if we're talking about HF gear?

 

Sorry,

duplicate post.

tim ab0wr

 

A volunteer fireman I know locally was seconded to FEMA in LA. He went in several days after the strike.

He was given a laptop and an assignment list each day. He went to the specified locations, interviewed local residents, recorded the interviews on the forms provided on the laptop, and took digital pictures of the damage at the locations which was also then transferred to the laptop. Each evening he would take the laptop to the report tent where it would automatically link to the wireless net and upload everything to the FEMA database via a satellite internet link.

FEMA may have been inept at getting stuff into the area but they *were* getting info out of the area - probably more than they could actually handle. And they were doing it without amateur radio.

Larry is living in a world where his self-importance is the primary driving force. This actually allows Winlink to turn him into a unknowing scofflaw. By using Winlink to provide 3rd party common carrier infrastructure and bypassing other reasonable, alternative radio services he is being a scofflaw.

The bright side is that, sooner or later, I'm sure his state EOC structure will be pulled into the real world -- by lawsuit if nothing else. The dark side is that Larry is going to become a prime candidate for clinical depression when this happens and his self-importance is shattered.

tim ab0wr

 

wa5ben:

It was all around you, Larry. All you had to do was come out of your delusional world and look around .

Yeah, sure it was. The rest of the world and its documented pictures on the web didn't actually exist, right? All the pictures in the web sites above are doctored-up lies, right?

Give me a break! Globalstar had 10,000 satellite on the ground in Louisiana and Mississippi within 5 days of Katrina.

In 2004 every parish emergency management office in Louisiana had a satellite telephone. Guess what? When the state stopped paying the $65 year lease fee for the phones the parishes cancelled their service! Those phone would have played a big part during Katrina had they still existed. And at a government rate of $65 per year, my guess is that not very many local entities along the Gulf Coast is going to be lacking at least one, if not more, this hurricane season.

BTW, published reports say that the satellite services worked well until they removed the blocks that kept the internet-at-large from connecting *into* Louisiana. *That* is just one more emergency managment decision that FEMA screwed up. I suspect it won't happen again!

But it *does* show just how reliable the internet is for getting email *into* emergency agencies in a disaster area.

Yeah, yeah -- we've heard it all from you before. The sad thing is that somehow *your* picture of the world and that picture of the world documented by journalism and on the internet just don't seem to be quite the same.

The picture that exists today in my state and your picture of the world don't even jive.

Oh, and BTW, I've lived out of my backpack for over two weeks at a time (and that includes using cat holes for sanitary purposes) during hikes -- eating freeze dried/dehydrated food and filtering my own water. You don't have much to teach me about primitive conditions.

You are just up to your typical blowhard tactics trying to imply that others don't know how to live without electricity (you *do* carry a flint and steel in your billfold, right?).

tim ab0wr

 

Tim I agree with you. The problem with people like Larry is they think that Ham Radio is the most important thing in EMCOMM. It is not. It is only a backup "when all else fails". According to what I have seen FEMA was doing a lot of good things without ham radio. I don't want to downplay our role but I am not going to sugarcoat it either. Larry thinks that everything should be passed over amateur radio. Even in our MCU we don't use much amateur radio. We have radios that talk to the government agencies we support as well as SATCOM, WiFi, and other methods to communicate. In fact there are only 3 amateur radios in the MCU that I can think of and only one of them is HF. We have not had any problems with any SAR missions that we have conducted. If you want to read about the missions we do you can go to SEARS and click on the RACES link. The only other thing we use ham radio for in our MCU is APRS and UHF/VHF voice. We do not use ham radio to talk to our agencies. If Larry and Mike are relying on Ham radio only for their EMCOMM then they are setting themselves up for failure in the future.

 

The VOIP story talks about an area OUTSIDE of the damage area. They had minimal damage. (Phones were out for only 3 days is a really good indicator.)

FYI: Experience with 802.11 has been frustrating for most. We have some of the best IT professionals in the business involved, and reliability has NOT been great. (One of the issues is that so many devices inhabit 2.4 GHz.)

The ARES story talks about the VHF restoral, which I have previously discussed.

The AT&T story contains an apparent error in the dates for Bogalusa. At the time that I left, there was no telephone service of any kind -- and no AT&T truck at the armory. (The armory was 2 blocks from our HQ.)

However, even using the AT&T story bad dates, 7 Sep 2005 is 9 days after the hurricane. (I believe they may have arrived late on 9 or 10 Sep 2005.)

In other words, as I said, ham radio was the ONLY form of communication for at least 10 days....

 

This is beyond stupid....

Gee, let me guess.... You had a "Batphone" (a.k.a. Iridium phone) ? I have set up several hundred of those -- mostly for use with USG COMSEC modules. They do 2400 bps voice and 600 bps (very) LIMITED text. They work only when you are outside, and the antenna MUST be straight up for it to function. (I had to show the ARC guy in Bogalusa how to use his, after he finally arrived. I also had to set up his 47 MHz radio.)

What part of THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH SATCOM UNITS AVAILABLE and/or EXPENSIVE and/or NO TRANSPONDERS AVAILABLE do you not understand ?

There are HF, VHF, and UHF ham radios available in EVERY area. Many EOC have their own amateur HF gear, and most have amateur VHF/UHF equipment. That equipment, even if brought in by local hams, is ON SITE and AVAILABLE at the moment that the disaster strikes. That covers the MOST critical communications requirement -- notification that we need help, and here is our situation (as we know it right now).

The HUGE problems of having ONLY voice capability are: 1) that every message takes FOREVER to pass, and 2) that every message is subject to PROBABLE errors. Having an error-free system means that we won't receive "2 fork lift buckets, ..." when we wanted "2 fork lifts, buckets, ...". (Sadly, this is NOT a far-fetched error. I have seen much worse.)

One of the "interesting" problems with the "Batphone" is that every recipient requires a separate call, and a separate voice conversation or message -- each subject to the same (or worse) errors as a "radio delivered message". Half the time, the ARC guy wound up leaving voice mails -- that were never replied to.

With an integrated e-mail system such as Winlink, our "needs" message goes DIRECTLY to the department responsible. No handling is required -- at EITHER end. With voice comms, we need only ALERT the recipient and receive CONFIRMATION of action. Less time on the air (on BOTH voice AND data) means more traffic can be passed by more users.

 

You sit hundreds of miles from LA, MS, and AL. You were NOT there. You have NO experience in disaster relief. Yet you, in your surpassing wisdom, know what was -- and was not -- present in a place you have never been.

EVERY link that you posted is a "Hooray for us, look what we did". NOT ONE of those links offers any story about Emergency Communications, and EVERY story is about days, weeks, or months AFTER the hurricane.

Ground Control claims that they were in Bogalusa -- but WHEN ? They were NOT there before at least 10 Sep 2007 -- when AT&T was also there. If phones were up, what did Ground Control provide ?

Space News is a satellite industry publication that promotes the satellite industry. Did you expect them to say "We weren't there for DAYS." ? (And, WHERE, exactly were all of those 10,000 phones ?)

Hughes had the decency not to claim that they provided service.

Radio Response has tooted its own horn in a quest for donations. They provided service to a SMALL area around Gulfport -- LONG after the hurricane.

Part 15.org only claims to have provided NON-DISASTER services to Kelly USA in San Antonio, TX.

Re: "BTW, published reports say that the satellite services worked well until they removed the blocks that kept the internet-at-large from connecting *into* Louisiana. *That* is just one more emergency managment decision that FEMA screwed up. I suspect it won't happen again!"

Just FYI: Internet connecting into LA would not impact SATCOM service. Red Herring, class 1.

When you actually get off your duff and DO something with regard to EMCOMM and/or Disaster Relief, you might have a perspective from which to comment. Your posts make it quite abundantly clear that you know nothing about EMCOMM, nothing about the "ground truth" from any actual disaster, and nothing about disaster management.

Were it not for the fact that some might be fooled by your words, they would simply be laughable. Because some may be fooled, you may get people killed because they will believe that SATCOM and/or "the government" will magically appear to save their butts. For that reason, those of us who have both KNOWLEDGE, and EXPERIENCE must state the truth. In simple terms, EACH PERSON is responsible for his/her preparedness; BUT, if a person has a ham license, that person is responsible for using his/her equipment for the benefit of his/her city/county/parish/state. (And THAT is in Part 97.)

 

Really? Let's take a look at that, cause you must have different definitions for the words "responsibility" and "voluntary" than I (or the rest of the world) do/does...

"§97.1 Basis and purpose.
The rules and regulations in this Part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:

(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.

 

wa5ben:

ROFL!  Yep, all of the documented communications provided are *LIES, LIES, and more LIES*!

Only amateur radio was effective in the disaster area.

Yep, it is all *LIES, LIES, and LIES*. Only amateur radio was effective in the disaster area.

Yep, it is all *LIES, LIES, and more LIES*. Only amateur radio was effective in the disaster area.

Yep, it is all *LIES, LIES, and more LIES*. Only amateur radio was effective in the disaster area.

Yep, it is all *LIES, LIES, and more LIES*. Only amateur radio was effective in the disaster area.



Re:  "BTW, published reports say that the satellite services worked well until they removed the blocks that kept the internet-at-large from connecting *into* Louisiana. *That* is just one more emergency managment decision that FEMA screwed up. I suspect it won't happen again!"

Yep, it is all *LIES, LIES, and more LIES*. Only amateur radio was effective in the disaster area.

Yep, it is all *LIES, LIES, and more LIES*. Only amateur radio was effective in the disaster area.

Yep, it is all *LIES, LIES, and more LIES*. Only amateur radio was effective in the disaster area.

Yep, it is all *LIES, LIES, and more LIES*. The only thing you can depend upon in a disaster is amateur radio. Depending on anything else will cost you and your family and your neighbors and your community your county and your state all of their lives. Death, Death, and more Death unless amateur radio becomes the saviour of all!

Do I have your rant down pat yet?

tim ab0wr

 

In point of fact, most of the URLs that you posted contained "editorialized" fact. The AT&T story appeared to be the most factual, even with the error in dates. I actually read them. Did you ? If you did, why are you pointing to them as examples of Emergency Communications ? Or even as effective Disaster Response ?

Dear readers, PLEASE read the stories at those URLs. You will readily see that my synopsis of each is dead on.

NONE of those stories made any claim that they were providing Emergency Communications. NONE of them attempt to claim that they were doing anything in the disaster area before at least 5 days after the hurricane.

WHAT was available to all of the towns IMMEDIATELY after (and during) the hurricane ? Ham radio.

Even if you buy the nonsense that commercial resources suddenly appeared in major locations, WHAT was being done for the hundreds of small towns ? NOTHING ! (EXCEPT what was being done by ham radio, of course.)

Washington Parish was on the air on ham radio DAYS before any state or federal government representative showed up. After the "governor" of LA finally permitted the federal government to assist, a couple of the FEMA guys were active on our VHF network. We used that for liaison between Washington Parish, St Tammany Parish, Covington, Pearl River, Slidell, Franklinton, Bogalusa, and the state EOC in Baton Rouge.

The sheer stupidity of your "this proves it didn't happen" nonsense is absolutely amazing. Those who WERE there know what happened, and what was available. For someone with ZERO knowledge of the FACTS -- and ZERO EXPERIENCE that would qualify him to make even an intelligent guess -- to sit on his rear end hundreds of miles away and claim that he knows more than those of us who were working 16 hour days, sleeping on floors in un-air conditioned buildings, and actually DOING something to HELP is beyond comprehension.

 

If you fail to see that the PRIVILEGE of having a license carries an OBLIGATION to serve in time of need, you fail to understand what it means to be a ham.

FYI: I blew about 10 days of vacation and spent about $800.00 out of my own pocket to fund my emergency supplies and the trip to Louisiana after Katrina hit. I worked with at least three dozen fellow Texas hams who all did pretty much the same, as well as some guys and gals from LA and MS who were helping their communities and others even though their own homes were gone.

If you fail to understand WHY we did it -- and WHY we will do it again -- I truly feel sorry for you.

 

Amateur radio is many things to many people. To you, the only thing in the world you see as a legitimate use of amateur radio is EMCOMM. To others, it's experimentation. To still others, it's talking with friends or strangers.

And yes, to some it's letting the license sit in a desk drawer for years on end. That's as much their right as it is your right to serve local agencies in times of need.


But you see, until the license is taken away, and/or until you and those who hold similar viewpoints to you are appointed to positions of power over amateur rules or privileges, it is still my right to do as much or as little with the license granted to *me* as I want.

There's a really good reason the word volunteer was put in there, but it seems you would like to have it stricken from Part 97. There are also good reasons why the rest of the introduction to Part 97... you know, the parts about fostering international goodwill, experimentation, furthering the art... there are reasons that those phrases are in numbered points just as equal, valid 'missions' to the one about providing emergency communications.

Obviously, your view of amateur radio is EMCOMM and EMCOMM only, all others be damned. That's why Winlink wants (already uses?) mostly dedicated frequencies, where there are supposed to be no dedicated frequencies for any specific station or service.

I see your viewpoint as one valid use of amateur radio, as long as our shared resource is truly shared amongst all sectors of the hobby. Do you see mine the same?

 

Larry apparently you think that everyone that has a license must provide emcomm. You are totally wrong. You must have a different copy of Part 97 than I do. Again you are putting words into the rules that do not exist just like you have done thoughout this thread. When you said read the articles posted by Tim apparently you didn't read them because you definitely do not read the posts here.

 

Well said. That is what everyone on here has said but Larry just won't listen. He has his own EMCOMM only agenda and all other uses of Ham Radio be damned. He fails to realize that on the winlink site they say quote "world-wide network with a flow of over 150,000 messages monthly from over 9,000 + users" Now that is a lot of personal email that could be sent over other methods besides ham radio. What winlink it turning into is a free common carrier service that does not belong on amateur radio. Also I suspect that Larry has the only EOC in the country that does not have other means of comms besides ham radio. At least to me that is how I read his posts. Our EMCOMM Van has only 1 amateur HF radio and 2 VHF/UHF radios. The rest are all on public service freqs and we do have SATCOM capability. For the life of me I don't understand why Larry's EOC does not use SATCOM because it is much more reliable than winlink would be and much faster but I guess Larry and his buddies want to stay stuck using an unreliable method to get messages out. (Larry spare me the lecture on winlink being 100% reliable because everyone on here has told you different. You seem to be the only one saying it is.)