SpaceX launches Es’Hail-2, first geostationary amateur radio satellite

Not at all. A decade and half ago the same was said about rocketry and NASA. Too far "out-of-the-box" thinking for Hams?

The LEO stuff they have done and do is just fine. However, I would prefer if AMSAT-NA would find a way to do things differently. Starting with re-prioritizing and/or promoting their HEO / GEO program to the public better and more frequently, and being far more open, beyond the board room and membership, about specifics of partnership efforts and fundraising.

 

I was at the symposium a couple of weeks ago. I don't know how much more open they could have been. GOLF-TEE is being marketed to the amateur radio community in a fairly aggressive manner. Are you an AMSAT-NA member?

 

Long ago I was with AMSAT but grew frustrated and disenfranchised, and more so after ending my membership. These days based on their programs I would be more inclined to join AMSAT-DL (also because I have family there). It's possible to make donations without being a member which I have done from time to time when they have moved in an agreeable direction.

As others have pointed out, marketing HEO sats ONLY to the NA satellite AR community isn't going to pay the freight. IMO, there should be FAR more attention invested in promoting the potential BENEFITS to ALL Hams and the general public.

It doesn't seem AMSAT is on board with the ARRL very deeply either, a two-way street. The League has been spending literally MILLION$ on failed ARPA legislation, when a big chunk of the problem of Hams in HOA's would be solved with a Phase 4 sat. That's an odd disconnection.

IMO so far GOLF-TEE seems a bit like a science-project style stop-gap pacifier diversion of efforts and funding drained away from a previously engineered and real P4 mission.

 

So what is an agreeable direction?

If we are talking about a geostationary satellite over NA why shouldn't AMSAT-NA encourage NA hams to help foot the bill?

Satellites are a niche. 99% of hams will never operate a satellite but I do agree that for those with HOA restrictions, they are a very viable alternative. My young ham daughter just snagged another DXCC entity via satellites and had a lot of fun doing so.

GOLF-TEE is where we are now. Without a lot of capital funding, this is what we have to work with. I doubt the Saudis are going to pay to put a satellite over NA. I am confident that we will one day have one but, until then, I am glad that AMSAT-NA continues to find opportunities to get satellites into orbit. We (all amateurs across the globe) are fortunate to have so many satellites to utilize.

I encourage all NA amateurs that are interested in satellites to join AMSAT-NA and to support the cause. Satellite operations bring me a lot of joy. What brings me more joy is to see my 12 year-old daughter having fun using them. It's the best STEM education I could ever hope to give her. 73!

 

Here in the US everything is always about confrontation, like the 2 party government system. How about we all work on how we can get a bird into that orbit for our use rather than always complaining about about some other group that messed it up. That spirit that sent us to the moon is long gone and has been replaced by something else. Lets do something.

 

That's too bad. I understand your choice to part ways. There is a wide range of opinions and expertise within the AMSAT organization. It is a diverse group of makers, designers, dreamers, users -- you name it! You're welcome back any time.

AMSAT-DL needs your support, too. I belong to several other regional organizations outside the US as well.

AMSAT will take your money, member or not. You can make a donation via our AMSAT store or by calling the office. It would be much appreciated! Thank you in advance.

The only disconnect between the two organizations is in the minds of people who want there to be a disconnect. AMSAT and the ARRL are friendly organizations with each other and despite that you'll always have a few humbugs that want to sow discontent. C'est la vie. Bottom line, they are two different organizations with two different set of goals.

I don't think you follow the amateur satellite space very well based on that comment. GOLF has specific purposes that will help us fill gaps, but it's more than that. We are in pursuit of specific launch opportunities that the GOLF program will help us in being able to utilize.

If you're interested in learning more, AMSAT is offering its Getting Started with Amateur Satellites guide right now with new memberships as part of the upcoming Fox-1Cliff promotion.

 

Good to hear the AMSAT / ARRL relationship described as friendly. I certainly want NO disconnect, quite the opposite. However I am suggesting a VISIBLE increase in cooperation and synergy.

IMO AMSAT's goals should dove-tail at some point with those of the ARRL. Advancing amateur satellite tech ought to assist the ARRL with its missions, and in return the ARRL provides resources, even FUNDING ASSISTANCE, to AMSAT to help accomplish those.

This is too vague to get anybody very excited about contributing. Is there a Twitter feed or some other media outlet that is publishing that kind of info?

 

Existing niche Amateur Satellite fans, like @WE4B and daughter W4AQT, are great, but are votes and contributions from the base. I feel that the recent gift contribution to her sat activity is but a tiny sign of what could come to these endeavors from many if the cause was designed to appeal to them and broadcast better.

A GEO Amateur Satellite ought to have far more mass appeal, IF its benefits were designed and promoted accordingly. LEO's are fine but of limited STRATEGIC value any more. They keep the lights on in regards to sat operations, but only for that little set of fans. HEO / GEO would break the constraints of LEO niche application, and attract a far bigger portion of the crowd.

LEO sat comms are about as attractive to most Hams, therefore the general public, as JT65 / WSPR modes. IMO there is a very small number of fans because the operating experience requires just too much time and patience, for little perceived benefit, for most. HEO / GEO sats would hugely solve that issue, as well as the curse of the Maunder minimum in ionospheric propagation.

Demonstrate how QSO's on GEO would not be the typical LEO FM sat party-line rat-race! For most its not a lot of fun to wait 90 minutes for a 10 minute opportunity to join a rapid fire fone pile up that makes those on VP6D look tame, with the capture effects making it all the more tedious, or the result just being a few bytes of data or digi-peating.

A P4 sat like Es'Hail with a 250 Hz analog transponder will be like adding a WHOLE NEW HF BAND of diversified operating opportunity. With continuous propagation, its a DX'ers dream. Nets and rag-chewers will not have to schedule around band conditions.

Perhaps controversial, but heck, even using a GEO sat occasionally for CONTESTS would interest a HUGE slice of existing (wealthy) Hams that now think of sats as just one quickie QSO for a little bonus during FD. Enticing those broad sectors of the demographic outlined above is how to expand AMSAT membership and contributions, big time.

Funding - STEM education is only one of several potential motivations, but ought to be a large one for GOVT sponsorship / subsidy. Commercial sat owners and launchers should see a HUGE PR opportunity for subsidizing a NGO / non-profit run GEO sat; headlines are already seen for SpaceX / Mitsubishi for their involvement with the Es'Hail-2 project.

Saudi Arabia is a non-sequitur for this thread; perhaps you meant Qatar, who helped to fund the Es'Hail-2 project. Wealthy as Qatar may seem to be, their GDP is still more then FOURTEEN TIMES LESS then ONE state, ie, California. There are plenty of resources within the USA, and a LOT going to far more trivial endevours then the easy to see benefits that a NGO / non-profit run GEO sat would provide not just for Ham Radio but the public in general. Politically PROMOTE THAT! (not ARPA) The funding is out there.

Elon Musk, who's self professed ambition is to get to Mars, produced a fine TV mini-series with that eponymous title on the Nat Geo channel. The second season just started, but watch the prologue episode, Before MARS, which clearly and proudly illustrates an Amateur Radio source for inspiration. Has anybody at AMSAT even thought to ask Elon if he would intervene or contribute to help make it so for a NA GEO Ham sat sooner?

73, John, WØPV

 

The one thing the U.S lacks: IMAGINATION.
I enjoy FM birds, and not everybody has SSB gear to work transponders...but this mindset is what has kept us out of a good system, those thinking of their enjoyment, and not of others...The 'we hate FM, so you will not be considered' group of small minds.
FM is fun, but SSB is excellent as well...WHY is it 'impossible' to build a bird that utilizes both?
Amsat members should have equal say, their money is the same, and they have a voice too.
Solar panels can be expanded, battery tech has come a long way since AO-40...LET'S MAKE THIS HAPPEN...UNITE and think of SOLUTIONS, not petty squabbles over crumbs.
I miss UO-14..the time has come for ALL to work out a system design almost ALL can agree upon, not just the digipeater folks, and frankly, digipeating is boring.
VOICE, FM or SSB is where the real fun is...talking to your contact, learning more than simple handshakes such as: Rig is xxx, location is...WX is... antenna type is...., then move on...B O R I N G!
STOP the contest mentality...we are all about COMMUNICATING, so let's COMMUNICATE, shall we?
This is supposed to be for ALL hams, not only those with financial influence. If this is how it will continue, then my support and meager assistance, dies.
We are in a growth phase, not demise...THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN HERE!....THIS FAR, NO FURTHER!
Stop the petty fights about resources of the birds, we CAN create a workable system for most, if not all users, I am CERTAIN of that!

Now, please ENGAGE, and MAKE IT SO!

 

With interest, i follow the discussion here. We also had such discussions in Germany. But finally the bird is on the way to his position 26E. In the year 2012 president Peter Gülzow of Amsat-DL was invited to the International Amateur Radio Festival at Doha/Quatar. At this time the cooperation between Es´hailSat, Quatar Amateur Radio Society and Amsat-DL starts. That’s 4 years ago. But the work startet long time befor this date. Many what the team of Amsat-DL has learned at the AO40 project is integrated to this new bird, but for me very sorry the great LEILA system is not. You may read the story with more details under https://amsat-dl.org/eshail-2-amsat-phase-4-a Amsat DL prepare now a special TX/RX mixer for uplink and downlink Ham equipment. So we cross all fingers that the Es´hailSat will go safely to the position in the orbit and that the HAM package will work perfect. The time for that will be about two month from now.

 

Wow, we think totally differently. I think the United States is a great country with many great ideas.

You cannot please everyone. I don't know anyone in AMSAT leadership that has said "we'll only build FM" or "we'll only go to LEO."

There is no "single path" to build FM transponders in LEO orbit. That would suck, in my opinion! The next Fox series satellite (1E) will have a mode J (V/u) SSB transponder. GOLF program takes us to even greater opportunities.

I bet a lot of readers here are unaware of the wide variety of satellites in space that workable RIGHT NOW. I hear people complaining about lack of SSB/CW transponders all the time. Guess what? There are almost a dozen! There are a handful of FM satellites. There are a few digital-only satellites. It is an amazing period for amateur radio space enthusiasts!!!

You can. It's not impossible. There are technical challenges to overcome. The problem is sometimes the question "is it practical?" depending on system resources. Vision is great. Execution takes resources. If you are ready to support the development of new birds, I bet our engineering team can use another volunteer to get things done.

You bet. The best way to exercise that voice is to carefully select who represents AMSAT on its Board of Directors. I encourage you to ask them their views. You might be surprised! Don't follow the nay saying crowd online that love to nit-pick and aren't engaged in the organization's future.

Just takes the right opportunities and the right resources. I agree with you.

Are you engaged? AMSAT could use your help. Forum posts don't build satellites and don't provide the resources needed to achieve great things for ham radio in space. There is no better time than the present.

 

Lots of good ideas, John. Some of which we pursue to the best of our volunteers' abilities. I'm serious -- if you are wanting to be a part of something, AMSAT could use your talents. Do you have Elon's phone number? Maybe you can text him for us (not joking - and not meant with snark.)

Maybe the confusion with some of these topics has to do with a general perception about what AMSAT is exactly? It is a non-profit with one full time employee and many volunteers. There are not people sitting around twiddling their thumbs thinking about what to do next. Things happen because people make things happen. It's easy to shout out ideas from the comforts of online, but it takes perseverance and hard work to bring them to reality. The volunteers sort through ideas to determine what is a workable path to success and move forward. The recent successes are evidence of that.

I for one would love to see a return to higher orbits and something like Es'Hail-2 for North America. And I don't know a single volunteer at AMSAT who doesn't.

 

This is old news but indicative of what IMO is a perception problem of /by AMSAT.

From the AMSAT web site,

Phase 3E Status

"In July 2015, Virginia Tech approached the U. S. Government with a proposal to fly AMSAT-DL’s Phase 3E satellite spaceframe with both a scientific payload for the Government and an amateur radio payload to a Highly Elliptical Orbit (HEO). Under this proposal, AMSAT would have operated the amateur radio payload on the mission. Although the U. S. Government approved the proposal to fly Phase 3E on a classified flight, the Government required Virginia Tech to partner with a contractor in order to ensure on-time integration of the payload. Fulfilling this requirement would have caused the project to exceed the allocated budget by several million dollars which resulted in its cancellation. The Phase 3E satellite spaceframe remains in storage in Germany. Updated June 10, 2018"

OK, usually "several million dollars" is a LOT of moola. AMSAT has apparently not posted what the number really is / was, or if it was / can be negotiated.

Certainly that sum is way above my head as an individual. But is sure ain't for some when it comes to stuff like DX'peditions!

The recent project to put Bouvet Island on-the-air was rumored to have a total expenditure north of one meg, $500K went for just the logistics from Chile. Just one club, the NCDXA, put out $100K alone, and is said to have put out well over a million bucks for such projects over the recent years.

Being a project with long term benefits, the P3E integration launch fee may have been FINANCED (?) Issue tax exempt bonds.

While not the same fruit as a ultra rare DX'ped, a HEO / GEO sat is instead an enabler and equalizer for MANY such events, creating a more fair and likely DX opportunity for a broader spectrum of smaller station amateur ops, not just the Big HF Guns, and capable of being utilized many times for YEARS.

I wonder how many of the 100's of thousands of TECH's, small station DX'ers, clubs and groups, sponsoring vendors, have ever been approached by AMSAT with such convincing evidence and organize a common online fundraiser for that P3E.

The footprint of Es'HailSat may actually cover Bouvet (?) Good to be in EU!

73, John, WØPV

 

Cool !


With all the potential QRM maybe one will have to ' take a ticket ' and reserve a time and frequency


G3SEA/KH6

 

Clayton, thanks for your replies. I hear you. Sorry if it seems I am being tough, it's just stirring-the-pot and brain-storming, not at all meant personally. I know that AMSAT operates on a shoe-string and a LOT of sweat from LOTS of guys and gals, like you. I appreciate that!

Unfortunately, I'm not a close personal friend of Elon's (yet) but he certainly seems approachable, so I may take up your challenge. Also, I have to believe there are MANY Hams working for SpaceX, and perhaps some of them will read this and think about it too.

Also in regards to working with the ARRL. I befuddles me there is not a closer relationship with AMSAT. Of course they have had their own issues recently, but perhaps that is changing a bit now with the recent BoD elections.

Meanwhile I will continue to plow through the AMSAT-BB archive to try to catch up. I see many expressions of common sentiments there.

73, John, WØPV