Board Ramps Up Focus on EmComm Issues

Responding to your points, below --

We have been losing our place in emergency communications because there aren't enough of us in a given area to originate outbound traffic. Radio hobbyists have been eclipsed by other means of getting out calls for help. The "relevant niche" remains ours for the taking, but is served only when there are people there to fill it.

Your premise linking emergency preparedness to frequency allocations is not supported by the record. Experimentation is and has been the stronger basis to warrant spectrum for the Amateur Service, and that's a cause for worry too.

The record of what motivates the people running the ARRL is clearly a revenue-based environment, promoting the health of the hobby because it's good for business. They crossed the line the past few years as we see them now back-pedal from selling "HAM' to government entities.

As for the "lot of drama," many people are convinced the Amateur Service must NOT become a substitute for communications infrastructure desired by state, federal, and other municipal entities, non-government relief organizations and other corporations.

The ARRL's board meeting supporting paid drills now shows the people in Newington are trying to undercut the FCC's recent writings as the agency protects the Amateur Service from these outside entities.

 

tim, sometimes you amaze me. You said the cellphones were working. For the most part, they were not. Precisely because many cell sites were down. If the cell that covers your area is down, your cell phone will not work. It's really that simple.

Cell service was not working, or at best, unreliable. That is a fact. Your opinion from Kansas on what was happening in CA not withstanding.

HR IS more reliable than a cell phone system that is not working. If you have zero coverage, or at best spotty coverage, then anything that works better would be a better choice. This seems simple to understand to most people.

HR is not affected by a fiber or landline cut, because HR does not use these resources. HR can and is a good last line solution for communication disasters, as has been proven time and time again. The fact that you are opposed to hams doing this kind of activity really doesn't matter, because your opinion is in the small minority, and no one listens to you, mainly because you are wrong so much of the time.

Joe

 

I find that a curious statement. While I don't participate formally with EMCOMM, I'm aware of natural disasters where electricity was completely out and reports were that cell phone's were useless. In that situation, hams with hand-held radios were able to provide communication. Not necessarily the sole communication, but communication nevertheless.

How do cell phones work when the towers have no electricity and are structurally damaged?

 

That is exactly the point. Cellphones cannot function without a base station that is in range. They are totally useless. Even a 2M HT will have a range of a mile or more to another HT. With mobile or base antennas, that range can easily exceed 10 miles.

Because HR is not dependent on any sort of infrastructure, it can survive almost anything.

Like you, I am not in emcomm, and I deplore whackers. But true "emcomm" plays a necessary role in what we are. It always has. This NorCal example is a good use of that role. Training and drills are necessary to effectively do this, and apparently they were prepared.

Joe

 

Hams should not handle communications related to the safety of life and property? So, hams should NEVER handle an emergency communication? So in your world hams should NEVER communicate anything more than a signal report I guess. Or discussing their latest surgery.

As for the "jargon", FEMA has changed the ICS system to get rid of all 10-type codes - communications need to be in plain language. Some departments are fighting it, but when they end up in an ICS situation, they are FORCED to use plain English.

And again, the point is being completely missed about when hams should be involved in emergency communications. Only when all the other systems have failed, and at that point the police/fire/etc have NO RADIOS to talk on. WHY do people keep ignoring that fact?

 

Useless to who?

Are you aware of the capability of the cell system to restrict cell usage to phones designated as emergency phones?

Heck, we had this capability on landlines using SXS equipment installed back in the 1930's!!!! Landlines connected to the emergency terminals (first two lines in each line finder group? It's been so long I don't remember) could get dialtone when no one else could.

Do you somehow think that cell tower service is based on the availability of commercial power? Most have at least some kind of backup power capability in the form of batteries or standby generators.

How does amateur radio work when the repeater towers are have no electricity and are structurally damaged?

This concept that amateur infrastructure will survive when cell phone towers fail and Part 90 infrastructure will fail is just plain not reality! It is an outgrowth of the ARRL canard "when all else fails".

When tornadoes destroyed the entire cities of Greensburg and Chapman it took out any amateur infrastructure that existed as well. The state was there with mobile Part 90 equipment shortly after. Amateurs were no where to be seen.

If you are *really* interested in what is coming down the pike for cellular take a look here: http://www.milsatmagazine.com/cgi-bin/display_article.cgi?number=1435005486

If the military does this it won't be far behind in being used by state, county, and local entities as well. The voice and data capabilities are just too great to be ignored.

I sincerely doubt that the amateur service can come anywhere near to providing this kind of capability.

tim ab0wr

 

When all is said and done, not a single person will have changed their mind or position on this issue.

 

That has nothing to do with what I asked.

Again, how do cell phones work when there is no electricity and the towers are destroyed from, say, an earthquake?

...........Bob

 

Joe! You are still being a troll!

The cell phone system WAS WORKING!!!! Specific cell sites being off the air has nothing to do with the system working or not.

You may be entitled to your own opinion but you aren't entitled to your own facts!

Ham radio does not work in cases like this because NOT EVERYBODY HAS A HAM RADIO. Nor are there enough hams available to provide nearly the service levels that cell phones can. There were *FAR* more police and firemen manning the area without service in San Jose than hams could ever *think* about providing. If Joe Public doesn't have access to a ham in this kind of situation then ham radio is worthless!

*EVERYBODY* today has a cell phone, hardly anyone carries an HT with them all the time.

You are nothing but a whacker trying to troll the ARRL mantra of "When all else fails". THere are *FAR* more hams that agree with me than with you. More importantly - the FCC agrees with me! So there! Take that, troll!

tim ab0wr

 

They are NOT ignoring that fact. If the system the front line responders use is down and there aren't enough hams to shadow every first responder (which you admitted already) then of what use is ham radio?

If command posts cannot find out what is going on in the field then how do they make any decisions concerning resource dispatching?

By osmosis?

By telepathy?

Exactly how much traffic capacity do you think ONE amateur repeater will provide anyway?

The answer to all of this is to build up a Part 90 system that *will* survive, that *will* provide sufficient traffic capacity, and is interoperable among *all* public agencies.

Ham radio just doesn't offer *any* of this. Those putting amateur radio forward as *being* able to do this are doing all of us a disservice. They drag down the reputation of the ENTIRE amateur service, not just themselves.

Why do you think so many first responder groups *groan* when they see hams coming?

tim ab0wr

 

How does amateur radio work when there is no electricity and the towers carrying the repeater antenna is destroyed?

You seem to be looking for some rationalization that the ARRL mantra is true: "When all else fails".

It isn't true.

Commercial cell services can work off of batteries and generators just like ham radio does. You can put up portable commercial cell phone antennas just like you put up portable ham antennas.

Towers carrying amateur repeater antennas have no special "hoodoo" that allows them to survive when cell towers are destroyed. If you believe they do then you are delusional.

tim ab0wr

 

ROFL!

Mobile cows don't exist in your worldview, eh?

Unbelievable, simply unbelievable. Only ham radio can survive in a disaster.

tim ab0wr

 

But that's not what you said. You said the cell phones were working. For the most part, they were not. Now you want to add the word "system". The "system" was indeed operational, just not in that area. So the system was unusable to most people. This should be clear to you. If you are handed a phone, and told to use it, and it doesn't work, the fact that the "system" is still up means nothing, if there is no signal in your area.

Not making up any fact here, just posting links from reporters who were there, and not in Kansas at the time.

It doesn't matter if everyone has a cellphone, if there are no towers (or few towers) providing service to the particular area of interest. HR is there not to give everyone access, but to provide additional channels, infrastructure, manpower, and locations for communications access points. If a cop or a fireman has to park at a location to provide comms, that is one cop off the street that could be used for another purpose. If hams can provide comms to a hospital when normal comms are down, that frees up hospital employees to do their normal jobs.

Again, cell phones are useless if there is no service. Two cell phones 100 yards apart cannot communicate without a working base station.

I'm a whacker? Boy, that is rich, even for you. tim. And the FCC doesn't agree with you, that's a very stupid comment. Nowhere has the FCC condemned the action of these hams in NorCal. Nowhere. They were doing exactly what they had been trained to do, and all of this was sanctioned by the FCC, the local gov't, and the hospitals involved. I'm sure they will change their ways once they find out that some ham in Kansas is mad that they helped out.

This just defies all common logic, but then I look at my sig line.

Joe

 

You have no idea the logistics involved in getting a cow set up. You don't just snap your fingers, and it magically appears. It can take days to get them in place and operational.

No cows were even needed here, all that would have been required was simple backhaul relief. The towers, transmitters, antennas, and AC power were all there and working beautifully. Yet no cell service.

Joe

 

Tim, I'm not rationalizing anything. I have no position one way or the other on EMCOMM or how the ARRL feels about it. I'm just trying to understand why some folks are SSSOOOOO against hams becoming involved in EMCOMM.

You have now twice avoided my question. I asked, how is it that cell phones work when there is no electricity and the towers are destroyed from, say, an Earthquake.

The answer is they don't work.

One is required to bring in SUPPLEMENTAL equipment, as you mentioned, such as temporary towers, etc.

I've used handheld ham radios to speak with other hams MILES away (direct, no repeaters), depending on conditions and terrain. I could be wrong, but my iPhone, as cool as it is, won't let me do that, unless it can find a cell signal to work through. In fact, I can't even talk to my wife's iPhone when she is sitting right beside me, unless, of course, my iPhone can find a cell signal.

This is truly silly, IMHO. *IF* hams wish to coordinate with local emergency services, and those services are willing and able, whether or not even a "commercial" relationship is created or not, it will have *ZERO* impact on my ability to enjoy DX, SSTV, working the birds, or pretty much any aspect of ham radio currently enjoyed.

I doubt local authorities are going to issue Glock 17's to every ham, but even if they did, I doubt even more those hams will invade my home and demand I stop working DX on threat of shooting me.

In fact, I can see absolutely NO impact on my enjoyment of ham radio because some others enjoy working with emergency preparedness and/or communications.

But, YMMV. Cheers!

.................Bob