New Callsign Format for Australian Foundation Licencees

So it appears that the Radio Amateurs Old timers Club also did not authorise RASA to use its name or logo in association with the survey RASA put into the field.

 

ACMA was not in favour of "short term" licences for Foundation ops when it was suggested at the start f the foundation class - it cost the ACMA to do such a scheme - having it as you suggest with standard and advanced being tested every 3 years would not work too well a large number of advanced ops would fail - not because they are dump etc but because of age, disagreement with the answers etc etc this would also apply to a number of standards also - it should be clear that the move by ACMA to open up the system is to reduce cost structures not because we asked for it - there are more changes in the coming year if not sooner and I think you may find that the changes are far beyond any suggested by WIA and RASA - currently I would give short odds on the ACMA dropping the class structure of the VK callsigns - currently we have a class that does not require testing on radio electronics concepts but can build radios and a class that can only build radio because they passed an exame on radio electronics - go figger either standards are going up without further testing or foundations are going up to be equal to standards or major changes to all level exams are going to be done which ever way it will be the advanced seem to be the ones that will miss out unless they get their 1500W - it will be an interesting time watching what the ACMA is going to do and I don't think they are taking much notice of WIA or RASA

 

Ccrrrooow Caaaaalllll ………………...

Everyone is running off at the mouth here ! [ Letters and notifications closely follow meetings of two large clubs in VK4 and VK2 … ]

Put the egos and entrenchment aside ………….

What is all this about? Who gets cuedos for achieving something? Who gets the ego boost? Who gets the award that someone can hang on their mantel-piece? Who is a big fish in a small, governmentally insignificant pond?

That is what this seems to be all over. Unless we sort this out fast it will be sorted out for us all to everyone's detriment ! Matters have already gone very legal in many instances ...

• Fact #1 - Communications (two, I believe) DID occur at high level between The WIA and RASA
  
• Fact#2 - There WAS agreement; I believe that close notes were taken by parties to those calls that verifies this
  
• Fact #3 - A lot of organisations obviously welcomed the cooperative efforts to FORWARD Amateur Radio - and this is why as the second post in this thread I posted AR VIC's Post to members.

AR Vic are VERY conservative and BASICALLY NEVER get their facts wrong ! It is their support for the initial motive that brings latest WIA claims crashing down in flames !!!

The fact is we need advancement; the issuing of F-calls in the 2 x 4 template was contrary to international convention at the time in 2006 (and still is today despite the explosion of "special" and "event" calls).

As F-calls in Australia (which is a GOOD THING) now EFFCTIVELY have the same technical opportunities as all other classes of licence in Australia (and that approaching CEPT standards); subsequently the issue now needs fixing to agreed international standards.

Now cut out the BULL and EGOTISM (and no I have not sworn) and work to collective growth.

There is already enough BULL and EGOTISM in some posts here. Some think that by taking others down that it makes them BIG in the eyes of others.

[ I personally have no intent in being known and I never accept awards … I just want to see AR become a SAFE PLACE where people WANT TO BE .. that is GROWING … its far from that at this time in VK ]

This effort - no matter who its from (and I was the one that first leaked the idea to The ACMA by accident) is a BLOODY GOOD IDEA !!!! So it should be supported and without ego and bullying !

The bully behaviour is making everyone look fools - especially to The ACMA that sees all and hears all. Yes I have forwarded much of this myself to them to support my claims that The ACMA need to listen to the individuals more via using better techniques than to listen to polarised toxic infighting groups.

Stop the crap.

Email the Presidents and senior office bearers of respective organisations (and get their addresses from here - QRZ.COM) and tell them to cut out the crap. These names are not provided out of malice - far from it. They all need to hear from "the little guy" that will not act like sheep and tell them what they want to hear:

• WIA Club President: Gregory Kelly VK2GPK
  
• WIA Club Vice President: Aidan Mountford VK4APM
• WIA Club Secretary: Peter Clee VK8ZZ
• RASA Lobby Group President: Glenn Dunstan VK4DU
• RASA Lobby Group Vice President: Allan Meredith VK2CA
• RASA Lobby Group Secretary: Ian Jackson VK3BUF
  
• AR NSW Club President: Mathew Magee VK2YAP
• AR NSW Club Vice President: Tim Mills VK2ZTM
• AR NSW Club Secretary: Eric van de Weyer VK2VE
• AR VIC Club President: Barry Robinson VK3PV
• AR VIC Club Vice President: (not easily confirmable so not reproduced here)
• AR VIC Club Secretary: Ross Pittard VK3CE

Also note their numbers of "lookups" (though these can be manipulated) as this can be a good guide as to whether they are representative in our communities or not.

International emails detailing the embarrassment that crap is causing world-wide would also assist ... as what is occurring in VK drags down all Amateur Radio World Wide.

Even better, ask them to arrange a "sched" on HF, DMR or even Echolink ! Now that will sort out the politicians and egotists from the true, active Amateurs that are the cannon fodder in all of this !!!!

Steve Ireland
VK3VM/VK3SIR
[ Subscriber to HAM - Help All Mankind ]

 

Fact 1. True

Fact 2. Has not been demonstrated or proven. I note that rasa has published parts of the email exchange. They show that Fact 1 took place. But Fact 1 was never in question, the WIA agreed that negotiation took place and it broke down.

I will also note that rasa claimed among other things "The wia agreed to send this survey to members" I do not see that in the emails anywhere. There is no implied agreement, there was no implied consent. But there were discussions.

Fact 3. I would not say a lot, some of those being claimed to be supporting the rasa survey have come out and publicly declared they did not agree to this.

This leaves only 2 rational options for what happened. rasa assumed more from the discussions than was actually given. Or rasa lied. Given that rasa has a history of claiming permissions and agreements when none actually exist, I am more inclined to believe that rasa are lying here.

 

Your responses only demonstrate the foolishness that I am alerting many to in the AR community.

The SECOND post in this entire thread BLOWS all your comments here away … AR Vic making that supportive post ! I know all on the AR (Vic) Board and some rather well and all are far from fools - neither do they step into such matters lightly.

Although as you have alerted to many some organisations seem to have latched onto the good will as sheep - and now that The WIA have flip-flopped … well... the chaos continues.

And for what gain? Ego? Big fish in small pond syndrome I suggest ...

As I have said in a personal email … think about what you post and how what you are posting can HELP STOP the BULLYING rather than cementing it ! Your comments read as a bullying a run down of me; my comments make constructive comment that all can follow to advance AR.

Now which is more constructive? Running me down or offering support to end the nastiness that people such as yourself are promulgating (for whatever gain)?

 

Oh Rob

And yes I have been in contact with RASA people to ask WTF has been going on … And I was aware of the chats and the TWO cordial conversations between the Club and the Lobby group.

RASA people will speak with me when I inquire - and I have made inquiry directly on these matters. These are not people known to lie; many RASA people have incredible reputations with Government. So why would they engage with Amateurs and much of our psychotic behaviours, putting their own "heads" at risk?

Have you made direct contact with RASA people? ( I know that you have not as you have been mentioned).

WIA people do not take my calls nor offer me respect and call me back. Many others try to do the same and report the SAME ignorant responses.

Have you been able to make direct contact with WIA people?

So what conclusions can I draw? Its obvious that one is playing games and words (and is changing positions when attending base AR Club meets, perhaps???) One Club appears not to be able to think by itself....

So what conclusions can I draw from your observations? They lack SERIOUS CREDIBILITY !

As for AR an these issues - Who is REALLY pulling strings? As we know that the "power" is NOT with the WIA Board but with the "layer below" it … That's why the entities that I named above need be contacted and these hard questions asked as these people have the power to restore order collectively to our fractured environment.

We need Clubs like our WIA. We need Lobby groups like RASA that can VALIDATE positions. We do not need fighting and bitching !

Note that I am an independent and do my own lobbying and make my own inquiries - some of which been quite constructive and effective. Perhaps you should try the same approach Rob? At least that advances AR … Facebook and Social Media just whips up the antisocial elements that feed on the nastiness of society.

 

Its not about conclusions Steven, its about facts. Anyone can build a strawman argument to make things look how they think they should look. But its another thing to produce actual evidence to prove something took place.

Rasa claims that in the emails that the WIA agreed to send that survey to its members. I cannot see anything in the emails that rasa released that says anything like that at all. So again Steven, the burden of proof is on those making the claims. Claims without evidence are nothing more than lies.

You keep trying to draw a line that this is about US and Them, that somehow, if I do not agree with you, I am the enemy. I am not against the survey Steven, I am against doing it in such a way that someone can vote multiple times. I am not against rasa being a lobby group, I am against lying and manipulation to achieve goals, I am against a lobby group causing harm to others and then not being apologetic about it.

You see Steven, I am rather Kantian in my approach there, in that the ends do not justify the means. If rasa wants to do things the right way and show honor and integrity in how it approaches things, then it has my support. However, if rasa wants to lie, cheat and think its above regular social norms then I am against it. As i said in the other thread, rasa can prove its case once and for all by releasing the full email chain. It released parts of it and those parts show negotiation. There was at no time any agreement being made in those emails. So one of two conclusions can be drawn, either rasa misunderstood the discussions being made, or they lied about the outcomes.

Seeing they lied about having acma permission to publish a call book and acma said they had no permission, and seeing that there is no actual proof the wia agreed to send the survey as written to its members, I think that rasa are lying again.

Nor have you Steven apologized for publishing the survey link on an international forum. This survey was meant to be about the opinions of Australian amateurs, sent to Australian amateurs, and you compromised the whole process., by allowing an international audience vote in something that effects Australians only.

In that regard, the WIA is wrong, it was you who released the survey internationally, not rasa. Rasa just designed a faulty survey to begin with.

 

oh dear - the debate so much for so little - what matters is that RASA (an incorporated association not a lobby group) denied its own members a voice at the AGM , it breeched its own articles of association , it knew it had no quorum but continued to hold the meeting rather then sending out voting forms to its members it decided to use a free web based survey and then assured members that it had "cleaned" the results up before announcing the result - In truth the RASA is 4 people that believe they are the light and saviors of the Australian Amateur Radio. Rasa cannot validate any thing - it cannot validate its own existence being in breech of its own articles and denying its own members a voice at the AGM Now you are telling me that the hobby should take this body as being its saviour as being the body that is going to save it you apparently believe that the officers of RASA can ignore the rules can ignore the law can ignore the members because they according to you they have incredible reputations with Government - prove it I have doubts that the Government deals with so called representative bodies that deny their own members representation RASA is currently 4 people and a youtube channel. RASA has SERIOUS CREDIBILITY ! to use your own words -
take some time off and watch the 3 stooges Moe and Larry are in front of the camera Shemp is on the phone

 

Well, so far I know of 3 people who have left the hobby over this. And I am the 4th. I had been thinking about getting out for quite some time and yesterday decided that was it for me to. What is happening within the hobby politic is an embarrassment to anyone who possesses even the slightest bit of ethics. When misinformation, lies and cheating become virtues, when the ethic is win at all costs or the ends justify the means, or when giant straw men are offered as truth and reality, anyone with the slightest hint on integrity or honor needs to question is this for me. And for me, its not.

That is the reality of rasa actions and wia's lack of spine in dealing with these things. With accusations flying around about some individuals being expelled from clubs because of bank fraud, others being asked to resign because of ip theft and everyone talking in back channels in whispers and rumors and this current episode of alleged ip misuse and what probably amounts to defamation, but not a single individual or group is prepared to do what is required. Oh everyone likes to talk talk and no one wants to make waves, but if 1/2 the stories floating about is true, then someone needs to end this whole thing with some criminal action. Then, this hobby might actually stand for something more than self interest and the indulgences of man children.

Ham radio is adult cb for those who passed an exam one time and nothing more than a folly.

 

The WIA have hit this one on the head with big Mallet, so it won't be happening.
ACMA or whatever acronym they have now are reviewing the decision to review spectrum management.

 

This whole saga wants putting to sleep.

So much hate and bullying over the fact call signs may have to be changed just to meet the use of certain digital mode operations.

I have been a ham for a long time and still enjoy the experience everyday of the week. Sadly for the last few years we have allowed people to start dictating what should be changed to encourage more people into the “hobby”. Sadly we still have very little to offer prospective newcomers right at this moment.

Groups, board members mentioned in this horrible saga need to take a close look at their conduct in regards changes they hope to make with or without our support before charging in and tell us all that this is the way to go.

The old saying “Our way or the highway” has long passed and been put to sleep. Let it continue sleeping.

There have been major changes in board members etc, other bodies formed to fix the downfall of AR but all I can see is a total disrespect of all hams in general.

We are now at the stage of you said this and I said that but no one is actually telling the truth in the entire conversation because they have to protect each other.

The solution is very plain to me because I strongly believe that if you have told a lie etc just resign and walk away. By doing this you protect AR as someone will stand up and fill the position you held.

There has been some constructive comments made here to solve the problem of call sign length etc, good comments made on how AR should march on but some just won’t listen and so the hate and bullying continues.

Hoping someone will just say enough is enough, resign if you have lied and let proper discussions continue with our regulator the ACMA

Cheers VK6NO Lindsay

 

That cannot and will not happen until the issues are dealt with and until people demand that those in authority act with honor and integrity. I agree, anyone who has lied or has been misleading here needs to resign. And I do not care what side they are on, wia or rasa. If you are lying and manipulating things to suit a narrative, you are are destroying the hobby and are the very kind of people this hobby can do without.

Perhaps someone can release the whole email chain and then we have a survey to see who should resign. Lets put this back into the hands of Australian Amateurs to declare a verdict. What says you @VK3QB lets have a survey of who lied and the loser resigns and cannot run again for 5 years. I bet that is a survey the WIA would happily run a joint survey on. What do you have to lose if you have been honest?

 

FL class licence ... it should not have 4 letter call in the first place.
some do gooder just do whatever they like without any discussions
Also the FL class licence need to be more proactive . lots of them just be happy with
FL. back in my days as novice limited i can not even go on 80M. so i have to upgrade to novice licence
. then Novice OP can not operate on 40M. so again i have to update my licence. to full call now.

Hi Ross
should be VF instead of VJ ... F for foundations or VL .... L is learning class.

 

Why are western societies increasingly coming off the rails?

just a silly seppo question...

 

Personality politics and social media is why Eric. Discussion of ideas have become a game of win or lose. You are either with me no matter what I do or you are the enemy. If you question what i do you are the enemy, if you hold me to account for my actions you are bullying me and if another group thinks differently than me there is a huge conspiracy against me. Take a look though this thread and you will see all those things being played out in much the same way as they are played out in our politics.

The normative is responded to with straw men and ad hominem, a debate of what is right turns into a tribal fight that reinforces biases. In this case we have a flawed survey of Australians opened up for the world to vote on, which allowed anyone to vote multiple times. An agreement that may or may not have existed. And someone or someone's lying about what was actually there.

In the real world if this happened anywhere else, heads would roll. Someone would be sacked or forced to resign. In ham radio, we are to spineless to do anything of substance. You have some of the players in this saga being allegedly accused of things like bank fraud, ip theft, harassment and defamation. But none of this is ever reported to the police or civil action taken because we are all to gutless to stand up for what is right and to demand better because everyone has something to lose. Rather its all passed around in chinese whisper chains, spreading rumor is easy, being a man and dealing with the substance is another thing.

And that is just how things are. We live in an age of unenlightenment. rasa, wia, ham radio, the whole lot makes me sick.