Hmm ok, but I'm not really here to discuss the slim jim. "Slim Jim produces a lower takeoff angle and better electrical performance than a 5/8 wavelength ground plane antenna. The approximate gain in the H-plane of the Slim Jim is from 1.5 to 2.6 dB" from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-pole_antenna We we need more height for line of sight, that is basic knowledge. At 28 miles for line of sight we would need our antennas about 100'. But this is why I'm asking about propagation, not line of sight. How can we work scatter or tropospheric ducting? Is horizontal polarization BETTER for either of these and why? Don't say "because DXers all run horizontal for SSB", that's not a technical answer. Do we want a high takeoff angle to reach each other via scatter? Do we need a low takeoff angle to reach each other via ducting? Which is better for 28 miles? Scatter?