Transmitting Communications for Public Service Projects and Personal Matters

Very simple Terry. If it is voluntary to provide support services to another NPO, then it is voluntary for them to provide the same level of support to your club!

It's only pecuniary when a business transaction takes place, or an invoice is generated with payment made! Helping each other out doesn't violate the rules. Is the picture Q5 now?

 

Wow

Wow,
There you have it everyone start a non-profit club and trade your services for radio gear to other non-profit entities. What an idiot I have been. I have spent over $10,000 of my own money when I could have gotten a dozen wackers togather and signed them up to provide communications for some charity events and gotten all that gear for free. And now that Uncle Sam is on board the check books should really open up. But now I see the light this is no threat at all to the Ham bands. Thanks for clearing it all up for me. Now where do I find the paper work for starting my non-profit club?

If this doesn't indicate a threat to those on the fence then they deserve what comes down the road.

Terry
AB8AL

 

I'm glad you think it's all that easy.

Let's see...a 501C3 is a long process, you'll have to hire an attorney, fill out a long application of which only 10 percent actually get through, even fewer get approved. Then you'll have to hire a CPA to certify your financial statement for the IRS and your state every year. Did I mention this process can take months if not a year or more? And this doesn't mean anyone is going to just start writing you checks.

So far we're up to about 1500 bucks just to get started. Then you'll actually have to do real actual work to justify accepting donations, unless you know of people that just feel charitable and give away money to groups who absolutely do nothing. (hint: you won't be getting support for too long, not to mention being investigated for fraud and sent to prison).

Not to mention other things such as insurance, the cost of all the professional training, and hundreds of unpaid hours you'll spend doing all the work. You and your accountant will have to account for every dime you spend or take in. Yeah, it's all a walk in the park let me tell ya.

Terry you really proved how much you don't know about community service organizations. Your narrow minded view further proves what is wrong with some of the mindset of the ham community who just don't get it.

But I don't expect someone who jumps to conclusions about others they don't know and slams them on a public forum to be rational enough to do prudent research and understand.

Just know that those of us who actually do the work to keep the lights on do it for the good of our community and to keep amateur radio going long after you and I are in the ground.

If we're "whackers" than that makes every HF'er with a 756 pro who chases DX a foul mouthed drunk glorified CB'er on 20.

 

They'd need a different SYSTEM if their Part 90 system goes down, not a radio or three. I think they could add redundancy to an existing one, actually, but it would be a "pay me now or pay me later" redundancy a lot of entities can't afford unless they're an immediate benefit. Paying rental for tower and site space for dark systems might just spark taxpayer resentment.


Cortland
KA5S

 

And you don't think that finding out the comms director has been squandering their money on a single-failure system with, at most, an inappropriate non-dedicated backup system won't spark taxpayer resentment?

If it supports safety of life services, it needs to be built right, or they need to close the doors. Sorry, but I don't think a hospital should be operating with Kabuto chef knives instead of sterile scalpels, either... no matter how well they cut.

 

Your assumption is that every hospital is publicly run- in the case of private institutions (which the majority of healthcare in the US is private), "taxpayers" have no say so- unless you want Obamacare. And non-working radios will be the least of your concerns.

There is no doubt any life safety system, radio or otherwise, should be done without regard for cost. This is what I strive to do. In the real world, however, the ones to blame are not those comm managers but the bean counters who shoot down any such proposals to spend cap-ex on improvements and enhancements. The problem is our great nation has a history of "tombstone technology" in many industries.

Airline security: need I say more, is one prime example.

There are many sides to the issue, and one who isn't directly involved with the process is quick to judge but they need to step back, do some research.

KC4RAN you appear to be passionate about this. Have you attended any of your local government and public hospitals to see what their emergency plans are for public health including communications? If we had more citizens out there like yourself involved in the process, those writing those checks would act much differently.

But I digress, most public hearings held by our governments are devoid of those voices of dissent that appear after the poor decisions are made.

These decisions are not made behind closed doors. Just as if one doesn't attend an election, one cannot complain about the outcome later when they opt out of participating in the process.

 

I hesitated using this word but was being sarcastic in my comment and could come up with a better one so figured it fit and you understandably jumped to the conclusion it was pointed at you. Easy to do and the negative side of emails and web posts. No benefit of body language or voice tones to help with the context in which something is said. I hope you can shake the feeling this is a personal attack. You jut happen to be the only one that is this deep in the pro "use it for public service or loose it" camp that makes some sense on the rules even if I don't agree with your justification of accepting donations from charities that are supported. Please Take a step back, drop the defenses and reread my example and try and see it from my side.

I think I have done all I can to show my concerns and if you still see non then so be it but then maybe I am not the only narrow minded one. I wonder if organized crime could have used your "volantary" donation explanation for a legal defense to beat extortion charges? I bet there were no formal business agreement or invoices exchanged. This crazy example sould point out how easy your interpretation of the rules could be abused. Remember just becasue your honorable doesn't mean the next guy is.

Terry
AB8AL

 

But see Terry, while that example is IMO, a poor one, we do live in a nation of laws and while my or your opinion may sway from that- the law is what counts! I still have difficulty understanding why you are so horribly opposed to amateur radio clubs, groups or community service organizations receiving donations of equipment. I am sorry but I cannot see the connection between getting say, a donation of a used taken out of service, destined for scrap pile repeater from say, a government agency for use by a local ARES or RACES operation. This happened in many counties in the NE back in the late 90's when those agencies jumped to their 800MHz whizbang trunked systems, and rather than selling off the scrap, they donated and in one case simply retuned the repeaters and reprogrammed the portables and turned them over to the hams, who use them for voluntary support of their RACES operation and thus, serve the community with ham radio.

No one gets paid for their time, either on or off the air, and our spectrum is used to serve community not just a select few who think they have some entitlement to exclusive use of radio spectrum. The FCC, DHS, FEMA and every state government, and many private not-for-profit community service organizations has recognized the value of not just the amateur radio service itself, but the people who are willing to step up and support their community in times of need with it.

Again, my bad for thinking that everyone feels this way. Total error on my part.

 

Holzberg Communications, Inc.

Totowa, NJ 07511
http://www.holzberg.com/

Are selling these radios with VFO intact to fire departments all over the country, they will not target the HAM community because they get 400% more for the radios from fire departments.
They also offer repeaters etc...

The radios is maufactured by Quansheng Electronics Co., Ltd. and sells on ebay to HAM's...

The owner of the company is a licensed HAM....

 

repeat

I screwed up the bolding so not sure you read the example I was refering to.
For example:

A charity that provide a $30 food basket to needy familiys for Thanksgiving has a Marathon event to raise money. They need communications to help out at the event and club XYZ volunteers to do it using Amatuear radio's. At the end of the event the orginizer gives the club a $300 dollar HT as a token of appreciation or what every reason you or anyone else would use to justify its legality. By accepting this gift this club indirectly just took food away from 10 needy families that the charity couldn't help because of the radio the club received. Even if this radio was donated to the charity it is still taking food off the table becasue it could/should have been sold. Maybe if the charity wouldn't donate items it would not get volunteers and would need to hire services which would be much more then $300 dollars. If this is the reason then it's something we as hams should be ashamed of, but should still not be a rational for taking the gift. If your going to volunteer for charities and using Amatuer radio it should be free to the charity or agency. Donations should be coming from elsewhere if at all.


Your example I can agree and support with no problem. The above is one I would be bothered by and find questionable with regards to the rules.

Terry
AB8al

 

if the group is providing merely communications support (as in acting as messengers, shadows, etc) than yes, I would say it may be possible that getting a donation of an HT might be construed as compensation for making transmissions, and thus may be in violation.

However, if the ham club is providing general volunteer support and merely using ham radio to coordinate their activity and support of the event (in other words the feed the hungry group is using Nextel, part 90 or are in no way using hams as "communicators" as was done customarily 20 years ago) than I don't see a problem with a donation of an HT, or money or free turkey (how many times do hams who work such events enjoy such perks as any other volunteer would?). The hams are there as volunteers, unpaid, not on anyone's time clock, supporting a not-for-profit, and not making transmissions for hire in such case, so their acceptance would not be called to question.

As far as the charity taking away from feeding hungry mouths, that is an issue for those who donate and support that charity as to how they utilize funds donated. If they are a 501 C.3, all their records of donations, including how those donations are dispersed or utilized, are a matter of public record under Federal law and available for your inspection as a taxpayer. It is ultimately a personal decision whether one wishes to support any charity, and one should do all the research they can to ensure the donations are used wisely.

 

And the use of these radios if they are not FCC certified for part 90 use by any part 90 licensee for use on public safety or business frequencies not only subjects the user to fines and forfeiture, but can subject that agency's license to revocation. I did not see any FCC ID listed on his specification sheets nor can find any information on the FCC OET website.

Maybe you should ask him what the FCC ID number of these radios are, and if they are not certified by the FCC for part 90 use, that sale of such is illegal and as a licensed ham he should know better. His ham license may also be placed at risk for such sale of devices.

There are also several sellers on Ebay selling modified VX150 2m HT's as "police/fire/EMS" and the seller seems to target glider pilots. Not sure if he is a ham but he is well aware these radios are not type certified. There is another thread on here and on GMRSWEB about these radios. I received a blow off from the FCC earlier this year when I turned him in.

Riley Hollingsworth contacted a volunteer FD in Alabama several years back who bought modified Icom IC-V8 HT's from another Ebay seller and were advised the use of such radios to transmit on fire department frequencies was not lawful and placed the departments' license in jeopardy. Not to mention the risk one takes when using equipment not designed or sold for use in life safety applications is foolish and an open invitation to disaster and costly litigation and liability down the road.

 

Attorneys and insurance companies are always interested in subrogation (passing the liability) to someone else. Failure of something used as not designed to be used by a manufacturer is a frequent claim. Without a type acceptance for Part 90 service and certification that the device meets Part 15, they don't have a leg to stand on.

I can just hear the deposition questions flowing because help wasn't there in time: "What do you mean you were on a different frequency and couldn't hear the traffic?"

If the guy who's importing uncertified, non-type-accepted radios for sale to others, he could be in big trouble. Loss of his ham license would be but a minor consolation prize.

 

ARRL Litmus test for use of Amatuer Radio

"A good rule of thumb when evaluating a particular request for communications support is, “Who benefits?” If public safety is the principal beneficiary, then §97.1 is being fulfilled. If the entity itself and not the general public is the principal beneficiary, then they should be encouraged to use radio services other than Amateur Radio."


And I just took issue with amatuer's taking donations for said agency. This looks like we are to tell the event organizers we can help with the communications but they need to provide part 90 radios as Amatuear frequencies are not the proper place for them. And as I felt all along playing the NON-PROFIT card buyes your nothing. Non-profit or For Profit are viewed the same as far as the rules are concerned. Looks like several here are using part 90 for these activities so have no issue. Charities that have had hams making use of the amatuear bands are going to take a hit unfortunatley. I may have been narrow minded on this subject but looks like the league is as well and even narrower then myself.

Terry
AB8AL