Transmitting Communications for Public Service Projects and Personal Matters

This giant run-on sentence is so full of inaccuracies it has more holes than swiss chesse. Go put on your foil hat KF5S, the cops are coming to take your HF rig away and haul you off in a black suburban...

 

Terry the rules in question regard accepting money or compensation for making transmissions on behalf of an employer. I used the example of ham clubs doing consulting work, and if they receive a donation of goods or money for the club or organization, how does this lead to the hams making transmissions for an employer? The issue is a licensee getting paid to make transmissions. If one is employed as a PD dispatcher and a ham, and is PAID to dispatch- then they CANNOT use ham radio regardless of all PD officers being licensees or not. It's pretty clear to me the intent of the the law is to prevent amateur radio from being misused in such a manner.
I don't think it means a ham who uses his knowledge off the air to do non-profit or even for-profit consulting work is guilty of "making transmissions for hire." And if my QRZ BIO calls question, you should check out the thousands who list their occupation as professional RF engineers, consultants, etc...by that logic they are all have a "pecuniary interest" in ham radio. Which I don't think is the case. I think we are all here because we have a personal interest in radio communications and enjoy it as a hobby- but that does not mean we cannot use it elsewhere to enrich our lives and the lives of others does it?

As far as your example of a hospital system, is that system a not-for-profit system? If not than it's no different than a ham club doing any work for any not-for-profit and getting perks. For example. the W3PS group in Philadelphia has a long standing relationship with the MS 150 which has resulted in access to various sites for remote receivers for their repeater system. They use this system for providing ham radio communications for the MS-150. So does the W3PS group get compensated for making transmissions? Are they not to use ham radio to support this not-for-profit community service organization? It seems to me that the MS folks and it's affiliates are merely giving the hams what they need to complete their mission as a group, not writing payroll checks to the individual licensees for dispatching radio calls.

Monumental difference in basis and fact. And the rules clearly allow what W3PS and many others do.

So when local PD/FD come to our organization for help in solving interference problems, we are to tell them to shove off? If they allow us to site a repeater on their facility for instance at no cost as part of a relationship, is this receiving compensation for making transmissions? I think you are stretching it waaay waaay out there. Ham radio non-profit organizations don't make profit if they are incorporated as NPO's and while actual money is collected for dues and costs, it goes to pay for the club members' use of equipment, activities, etc. So when your club collects money for costs associated with putting field day, this is considered compensation for making transmissions? The ARRL would be the queen mother of violating this rule, so we all better get out that checkbook or AMEX Black card and "Pay to the Order of FCC".

 

"Knowledge" is not a ham radio license. It is not the use of knowledge that can lead to a problem. It is the use of the amateur radio equipment and license.

Certainly I, as a ham, can go to the EOC and program the EOC's radios. But the fact is I do not "go as a ham." I go as a consultant, using my knowledge and not my ham license. I go bacause they know I am capable of doing that, and it has absolutely nothing to do with my amateur radio license.

Those people who indicate they are RF engineers are legitimate in doing so. That has nothing at all to do with amateur radio licenses! It has to do with their career or vocation. Certainly that RF knowledge may help them in amateur radio.

I was employed in professional communications for nearly thirty years, but never, not once, did my amateur radio license become a part of it. That I was a ham was coincidental to my employment, and I could have done the job exactly as well if I had never heard of amateur radio.

But a look back, shows I was a ham as a teen. And certainly my knowledge in radio electronics, and my knowledge of Morse code, qualified me for a specific job requiring both. "Qualified" me. It showed I had the knowledge they required, but that knowledge could have been acquired in other ways. And for many of the employees, it was, from places like Navy radio operations.

The point is, the amateur license showed I had some of the required knowledge and skills. But once hired, the ham license was totally useless. I was not operating ham radio.

The two - knowledge and license - have to be separated. You can acquire knowledge many ways, and you should. There is no rule that prohibits you from using your acquired knowledge, that you acquired by nature of your ham license, to go fix a business or commercial radio. You might have exactly the same knowledge, but not be a ham, and still be asked to repair a radio for your local Red Cross. It has nothing to do with amateur radio!

Nothing wrong with that at all! But you are using your knowledge, not your license.

Ed

 

Maybe so, but here is a direct quote that was posted by a emergency manager in Oklahoma on the ARES_OK yahoo group: "Re: FCC Interpretation of "Business Communication" Hurts Public Safety


A big thanks to Mr. Smith regarding bringing this to our attention. As an
Emergency Management Director and police officer for many years, I can say that
communications is always our biggest headache during disasters and large-scale
emergencies. We've been fighting the expansion of the quarter-billion dollar
Moto junk 800 MHz radio system by OK Homeland Security, simply because of its
incredible cost and because, as you all well know, relying on one system for all
communications is definitely not the complete answer to public
safety/disaster/emergency comm problems. As such, we have been pushing very hard
over the past few years to have all emergency managers in the State obtain at
least a tech class license and get involved with ARES. Frankly, the only
feasible way to communicate statewide is through amateur radio. Period.
Honestly, when it comes to response and recovery to disaster, this opinion won't
stand in the way of life saving, but it must be fought by each and every one of
us." This has a trickle effect from local emergency manager to push for their employees and volunteers to get a ham license to use strictly for public service communications.
Oh, by the way, I worked as a "certified" police officer in Oklahoma, I served as a volunteer firefighter, I was a storm spotter for over 33 years and served as director of my hometown emergency managment for many years...so I too have plenty of paper to hang on the wall and brag about if I wanted to. It is you that will be hauled off in a black suburban, not I.

 

My point exactly Ed. We are all HAMS and enjoy radio as a hobby, but there is nothing in the rules that say we should not use our knowledge, skills and ability in other parts of life!

The rule in question at the beginning of this thread states you cannot make transmissions for hire in the amateur radio service. And I have never disagreed with that. Ham radio is not a substitute for your public safety radio, you taxi radio, your GMRS radio, your cellphone...and is not to be used in place of it.

However others have gone one to make assertions that ham clubs cannot accept donations of equipment or funding, as somehow this is construed to be "a pecuniary interest" despite the fact that no one licensee of the amateur radio service receives any compensation for making transmissions on behalf of another.

The rule is pretty straightforward. But to say that amateur radio cannot be used to serve the community and support your local not-for-profit community organizations, local, state and Federal government is in conflict with the basis and purpose as spelled out in part 97. Voluntary...YES! Paid by employer NO.

But let's be frank, many don't like EMCOMM or volunteering...fine- don't do it. But don't sit here and tell me "it's illegal" when it clearly is not the case. and don't spread misinformation and disinformation to discourage others who may have a desire to serve from doing so.

 

I see no problem with encouraging anyone from getting a ham ticket and operating within the rules. Making it mandatory as a condition of employment? No. What's the big deal. Plenty of for profit companies including Motorola, IBM, Lockheed Martin, etc have amateur radio clubs that encourage licensing of new hams. So let me guess, your opposed to that as well because they might talk about their work over their 2m repeater?

I still don't see above nor can find any official directive from that agency specifying their SOP will require all employees to get amateur radio licenses and use them in place of their trunking radios and thus, get compensated for making transmissions in the amateur radio service.

Show me that and I'll be the first in line to file an EB complaint with Laura. It seems to be they have an emergency manager who wants to share ham radio with his employees and volunteers from what you posted above.

Show us the specific passages of HR-2160 that applies here. I doubt you've even read the bill in it's entirety. Show us in HR-2160 where it is proposed that the amateur radio service will be taken over by the DHS. It's not there. Aside, any such changes would require modification of part 97 and are there any such NPM's on the FCC agenda? Not at this time. So quit sounding the alarm and spreading rumors that simply aren't true.

Oh my God, someone wants to get new hams licensed...sheesh...what a capital offense. Someone call CNN!

 

Fixed it for you...

 

Part 97 question

§ 97.113 Prohibited transmissions.
(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
(1) Communications specifically prohibited
elsewhere in this part;
(2) Communications for hire or for
material compensation, direct or indirect,
paid or promised, except as otherwise
provided in these rules;t


This is a direct clip of the section of regs.

When you support a marathon or what ever event. In my oppinion you are transmitting communication for hire if you accept donations for doing so. Wheather it is called dues, radios, or any other compensation. If somewhere the rules state that this activity is exempt for Non-Profit activities like the MS events or March of Dimes or what every then that would be different. Can someone give the the paragraph in the rules that specifically exempts this. Just because people have been doing it for years with no NAL doesn't mean that it was or is legal it just means no one complained. If Charities are not exempted I would support a rule change for that. I think the public safey people are trying to highjack what arrl and charity work have been doing and sell the idea to the Hospitals, PD and FD. That I can't support being an exception other then during an actual emergency which is already covered. I don't think "emergency use only" repeater system have a place in amatuer radio. They should be Amatuer use repeaters pulled in to service if needed during an actual disaster. Problem is the Puplic safety group may have a hard sell with their agency donars without this stipulation. Why would a hospital want to pay for a repeater and its up keep if the system was being Ka-cunked all the time by amatuers? The scenario has hijacked 1 repeater pair from amatuer use and giving it to Public safety for an emegergecy that may never come.

Terry
AB8AL

 

ARRL's paid control operator exemption

§ 97.115 47 CFR Ch. I (10–1–98 Edition)
(d) The control operator of a club station
may accept compensation for the
periods of time when the station is
transmitting telegraphy practice or information
bulletins, provided that the
station transmits such telegraphy
practice and bulletins for at least 40
hours per week; schedules operations
on at least six amateur service MF and
HF bands using reasonable measures to
maximize coverage; where the schedule
of normal operating times and frequencies
is published at least 30 days in
advance of the actual transmissions;
and where the control operator does
not accept any direct or indirect compensation
for any other service as a
control operator.


Well this seems to exempt the payment of ARRL operators sending the code practices. I still don't see anything similiar to this for Non-Profit functions but still looking an hope someone making this claim can point me to it.

Terry
AB8AL

 

you answered your own question Terry.

"(2) Communications for hire or for
material compensation, direct or indirect,
paid or promised, except as otherwise
provided in these rules;"

Working the MS150, or supporting any other public service event, emergency communications, or supporting a government agency is not communications for hire UNLESS you get PAID TO BE THERE TO MAKE TRANSMISSIONS!

A club getting a donation of equipment or services is not making those transmissions for hire! Why is this so difficult to understand. To say so, means that every transmission made from W1AW is "for hire" if the equipment was donated, every ham club operating a repeater with donated equipment or space is "for hire".

I think you want to cut and paste your opinion as being law and it isn't.

If you don't want to do EMCOMM or support public service: fine. But stop posting this nonsense because it simply isn't true.

 

Clarification on Charity work

I need to clarify I am in favor of allowing Amatuer radio frequencies to be used for low budget charity events (why should a charity have use of our frequencies if the are throughing parties and paying salaries to employees?)as long as the hams or ham clubs are not accepting donations, dues, or other indirect compensation from the served group. Otherwise I would consider it Communications for hire. Correct me if I am wrong but Non-profit organizations pay a lot of their donations towards salaries and expenses not even close to every dollar received goes to the claimed recipients of the donations from time to time this makes the news. United Way was the last one I saw exposed several years back. I think changes were implemented to clean up the abuse. I see a conflict of interest any time a served agency gives money, items or promises to a club or individual because it is to easy to cross the line. If your can't purchase your own equipment, get donations from non affiliated hams or companies you shouldn't be volunteering for activities. I the one your serving needs to provide you any thing materially you are communications for hire as I read the rules. If I voleenter for an event I need nothing I can provide my own HT, VHF/UHF mobile, HF mobile, HF base and antennas for each. Why is it an agencies place to buy these items? Why are my tax dollars needed for a backup to a backup of a backup? More money we don't have going done the drain. If you are not providing your own gear how are you and asset someone else needs to show you how to use the equipment. Just what they have time for in an emergency. Also if you can't afford a radio how much experience are you going to have using it?

Terry
AB8AL

 

For hire

N4XTS:

Have your our you club recieved money, or equipment from anyone involved with the MS150? A simple yes or no is all I am looking for.

Terry
AB8AL

 

Not only have I read HR 2160, I have sent copies to our congressional delegation with my reasons for opposing it. Under Section 3, it gives the Director of Homeland Security the "authority" to study for "improved integration of Amateur Radio operators in planning and in furtherance of the Department of Homeland Security initiatives"; this is a broad statement and tends to leave the door open for any initiatives that Homeland Security wants to impose on how amateur radio is to be used. We already have rules in place that allow for amateur radio to be used during emergencies and under changes to the rules in 2006, we already have written agreements with Homeland Security as to how ham radio can be used during disasters as we do with other agencies like the National Weather Service, so why do they or need more? Also in HR2160, they try to entice us with rules which would allow hams to install antenna structures and antennas in communities that might have restrictions. Most states, including Oklahoma, have already enacted laws allowing for such structures. Why do we need Homeland Security addressing this issue? In their own findings, they state: Amateur Radio has formal agreements for the provision of volunteer emergency communications activities with the Department of Homeland Security, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the National Weather Service, the National Communications System, and the Association of Public Safety Communications Officials, as well as with disaster relief agencies, including the American National Red Cross and the Salvation Army. HR2160 goes on to say "to identify unreasonable or unnecessary impediments to enhanced Amateur Radio communications, such as the effects of private land use regulations on residential antenna installations" it does not limit those impediments to antenna installations, only "such as". This would be a backdoor approach for Homeland Security have Part 97 rules amended to allow exactly the type of communications that is being discussed on this forum. I am not trying to change anyone's point of view.. I am just saying that hams have a reason to be concerned about the issues being discussed here and using this forum to exchange comments and ideas should be a good thing. We may not resolve our difference of opinions, but aren't we entitled to an opinion? Maybe I have been a ham too long, Im starting to sound like a politician.

 

Terry
AB8AL

 

Icom, Kenwood and Yaseu get advertising for making such donations. Advertising promotes commercial sales of equipment, so by your logic, then W1AW is making transmissions for pecuniary interest and such transmissions violate part 97 as cited above.

Emergency traffic takes precedent over all over routine traffic, repeater or no repeater. See part 97, sec 97.401, 97.403 and 97.405.

As far as privately owned repeaters restricting operation, the FCC has ruled closed repeaters are permitted in the amateur radio service. While we don't have such systems in Atlanta (that I am aware of), emergency traffic takes precedent above others as the rules say so. This is pretty standard on ALL radio services, this is not unique to amateur radio. Why you seem to have a personal problem with this is beyond my capability to comprehend.

Sounds like your beef is with groups or individuals having closed repeaters, I happen to agree with you that amateur radio is not the place for closed systems, other radio services such as GMRS and part 90 are. However, if an individual or club pays the bill for purchasing, installing and maintaining equipment, then they have do have the authority to limit it's use. As the control operators are responsible for lawful use of such systems, then they can take measures to limit their use to ensure that all operations are in accordance with their groups repeater use guidelines.

Just QSY. Are you telling me that every repeater in your area is "emergency traffic only"? Wow...never heard of that. Most repeaters on 2m and 440 in Atlanta are dead quiet 99 percent of the time.