Transmitting Communications for Public Service Projects and Personal Matters

So hold on... We have one person replying to the same thread from two different accounts... one personal and one club account.

Is that what I'm reading here?

 

I don't think that's what you are seeing. The club account is managed by another ham. I could be wrong, though.

A "Founding Member" is not necessarily who administers the club account on QRZ.

 

Then that ham needs to log on to QRZ with their own account.

I didn't think 'club' accounts were supposed to be posting on QRZ.

 

Sounds like you have it all in one bag. I don’t think anybody has a problem with a situation like yours. The problems exist when the part 90 systems have not been well designed / installed/ implemented. Then they entities use amateur radio as a primary back up systwem. What you and your hospital have in place is commendable.

In our county we have a similar SAR unit consisting of volunteers. In order to be a member they must first be certified first responders. Ham licenses are not a requirement nor are they utilized much. Communications are done on part 90 equipment. They work tirelessly and are not paid for their efforts. Of course, they are not part of this discussion. Several hams are members but, for the most part, they leave their ham toys home when on a mission.

NI7I

 

This is the part that scares so many of us.

Even these hospitals outside Metro Atlanta HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY to put in Part 90 equipment as their backup system.

A lack of money is NOT, let me emphasize *NOT* an excuse to turn amateur radio into an emergency radio service.

Amateur radio is NOT a resource for non-licensed entities to "make the best of".

I applaud your community service.

I do NOT applaud your eagerness to give away OUR spectrum in order to further your self-interest.It is obvious from your posting that you see ham radio as just another emergency radio service -- IT IS NOT.

tim ab0wr

 

Yes, it *DOES* mean it exists solely for personal aims.

 

MALARKY, PURE MALARKY.

voluntary noncommercial communication service

Does the term voluntary mean *anything* to you at all?

My value as an amateur radio operator is *NOT* based on the amount of time I give to GO's or NGO's.

NOR IS IT IN YOUR PURVIEW TO JUDGE <font size=5>*ANYONE* <font size =3>BASED ON HOW THEY DECIDE TO ENJOY THE AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE.

<font size=6>THE AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE IS NOT AN EMERGENCY RADIO SERVICE NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WISH IT TO BE.<font size=3>

Think about it.

tim ab0wr

 

Give away our spectrum?

Our spectrum does not belong to us Tim. Spectrum belongs to no one entitiy, it is LICENSED for use. You see, we (myself included) do not have a right to any radio spectrum. It is a precious resource, a limited one at that, and can be taken away at anytime. You have to recognize there are those with great resources (read= money) that have their eye on where we are essentially squatting.

I guess some of us grasp that concept and recognize the importance of community service and understand the bigger picture and scope of things. There is a great world out there, one that functions on the premise that one must pay for what we use. Community service is that payment. Other radio services require fees Tim. I had to pay $85 for the privilege of using GMRS. That's cheap. Part 90 license cost big bucks. Part 80 and PCS are even more. And users pay greatly to use them. Broadcasters pay dearly for use of their spectrum. The only ones who get a pass are non-commercial users, who get a break on fees- even so, all licensed broadcasters are compelled to log a certain number of community service hours of programming per their license.

It's not a foreign concept in the rest of the communications world. It's just the way it is. I'll bet you'd balk and scream if this same modest requirement was made to the amateur radio service to maintain a license. Personally, I'd have no problem with that. 20 hours of community service a year is a bargain to continue to enjoy the privilege of the wide spectrum and modes available to us.

Some logic shown here reminds me of the proverbial spoiled child who always had his way paid and then his folks die off and he is left to fend for himself and gets frustrated when the bank comes to take the house and he wonders why. Amateur radio is not always going to be here, you are right Tim, it is purely voluntary to do community service, and understand that the powers that be have voluntarily allowed us access to the spectrum we use.

If we squander it and don't use it (which no debate the activity, especially on the VHF/UHF bands, is down to it's lowest point ever), it will be stripped away by those who will profit off it. And rest assured Tim, it won't be hospitals or police departments- they'll become paying subscribers to use it, as will you, should you choose to use it. Community service can be a golden key to demonstrating our value as a service when those with deep pockets (and it isn't your local hospital or PD= think Google, Verizon, AT&T, Comcast to name a few) come poking around for a spectrum grab.

Your right, you aren't compelled to do anything.

Do nothing and ensure that nothing happens to secure our future.

That's what I have been trying to do. I've spent hundreds if not thousands, gave years of my life and will continue to do. It would be nice to have some help being that everyone in the amateur community benefits from these efforts.

 

I agree Tim. So put that same effort in telling the boys in Newington to drop the term "emergency service" from their lineup of propaganda, and stop this silly PR campaign citing amateur radio operators replaying scenes out of "Armageddon" saving the day passing RadioGrams while the twin towers are falling. It's cheesy and unseemly.

You see Tim, one of the things my organization does to help governments out is no-cost technical consulting. So when the Motorola sales weasel comes with his money sucking vacuum cleaner to drain our already low budgets peddling what they want, those in positions of decision making authority now have independent, knowledgeable technical resources that aren't trying to sell them anything. We kept our county from losing some valuable tower space when the National Park Service did a makeover on a mountaintop site and OOPS...Ma M *forgot* to consider the half dozen or so VHF and UHF repeaters in use by the county for backup communications and the school board radio system. Yes, I'm giving myself a pat on the back, but we are proud to have saved our county a major logistical nightmare and around $60,000. We got nothing in the deal but we spent about 100 hours drafting letters and going to meetings and following up with those involved.

So you see there is plenty of work we can all do to serve and more than just standing around in orange vests on four corners holding our EF Johnsons. Many amateur radio operators out there have some of the best technical minds and I'd like to think most of us are practically minded and use the KISS rule. We can spread that knowledge and use it for the benefit of others, and it always come back to us in the end.


But amateur radio does not exist solely as a hobby, slice it anyway you want- color it with that Crayola fun pack with your one liners, it is a radio service like any other. And please recognize, the FCC has nothing but commercial interest at heart. Don't think for a minute they are interested in preserving this service, they'd very much like it to go away and make a few billion to their coffers in the process.

But like I said, do nothing and ensure nothing will be done to keep it going.

 

Correction to N4XTS post

I will retract the part about your operations my "odds are" statements were based on thinking you had posted it was not a violation to transmit from your employers during a drill. Evidently I mixed your call up with another post. After re-reading all the posts here, in fact, I found that your references were all for actual events and not during excercises. While I never claimed it as fact with my "odds are" statement. I will admit when I am in error.

As for GA hams monitoring your operating practices this is under the self policing aspect of the hobby. If you where in violation. The operation should not be ignored. I would expect Mi hams to monitor my operating practices if I were not following the rules as well. A simple OO's notice rather then an NAL is much better. We as a group should be able to keep ourselves in line and not run to the FCC over every little matter.


One comment I belive was made by you is listed below:

"Excellent summation. I believe the code section on pecuniary interest means exactly that, I cannot make any transmissions where I receive direct compensation from the making of such transmissions. Nowhere in the text of part 97 does it indicate if I happen to receive money indirectly and consequently am I in violation. "

Are you saying that if someone from a served agency "donates" a handheld to you for the work you have done its not in violation? (I can see both sides to this but lean toward the not acceptable simply based on business practices where I work. We can not accept gifts valued at much over $20 to $30 dollars if I remember correctly)

Can you give an example (factual or fictional) of receiving money indirectly but not in violation of the rules? Is it ok to charge a served agency for consulting and training on how to use ham radio for emergency backup as long as you don't charge for operating the station during a disaster?

Terry
AB8AL

 

I did not make those statements above. As far as donations, we have never received any compensation in any form for making any transmissions on any radio service. We accept donations as any other amateur radio club does. So if your local radio club in MI gets a donation of a new repeater for your club from a local two way shop or government and you agree to keep the repeater site where you put it up, is that compensation for making transmissions? Of course not! If so, then about 99 percent of the amateur radio clubs, and especially the ARRL, are in violation. (Like all those nice HF rigs at ARRL HQ that were donated by Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu) The rules don't preclude us from getting such donations so far as the FCC is concerned. Now of course an organization is responsible for proper reporting and accounting of such donations to their state revenue department and IRS as required by law but this is beyond the scope of this thread.

You are getting me confused with someone else. I don't advocate any use of amateur radio for anything other than it's stated basis and purpose as set forth in Part 97. WC4RAV does have access to other radio services (including GMRS, part 90, iDEN, various trunking systems) through mutual aid and access agreements and we use those when appropriate. We NEVER hand out ham radios to non-hams, or pass any traffic that is not appropriate or may be viewed as contrary to part 97 or any other regulations over ham radio. We DO encourage ANYONE with a genuine DESIRE to learn about radio communications and has a desire to serve the community get licensed and have in fact gotten several public safety officials involved in amateur radio and duly licensed in several metro Atlanta agencies. All of them are now active hams, and yes, they QSO regularly. More importantly, they now have a new understanding of radio they didn't have before and are using this knowledge to their benefit. It's a win-win for all of us.

I want to be very clear about this. Amateur radio is a great thing, it has been a lifelong love of mine and I want it to be around for my grandchildren. I think we have a great thing going with our capabilities and while we all have fun whether it be chasing DX, or D-star...we all have to do a little to ensure it's future.

Burying our head in the sand and pretending that other commercial interests are going to go away is living in a fantasy word. The threats are real and the FCC is not our friend. Remember these words.

 

XTS, I grant you that losing spectrum to commercial interests is valid concern. And I'll additionally grant your enhanced vision on the subject given your profession. I'll grant this is topic is certainly not my forte.

Right or wrong (somebody correct me on this) I only have heard that this cannot be done as a result of signed International Treaty of spectrum allotment. IIRC, recently there was a case in the Netherlands and GPS, where commercial interests lost out for this reason?

But you should perhaps start another thread with some corroboration or documentation of the immediacy of the threat (of losing our spectrum to commercial interests). I for one would be greatly interested in reading it and any other contributions on the topic--and would likely jump on the bandwagon to combat any immediate threat. And I use the term "immediate" loosely (i.e. within the next 5-10 year period lets say). And "threat" loosely also (i.e. we;ve lost and gained some narrow spectrum bands here and there over the years if I understand correctly...so a threat would be a loss of entire HF bands for instance).

I just think absent additional documentation and independent confirmation (where is the ARRL on this matter?) of your possible immediate loss-of-spectrum-to-commercial-interests arguments--it just appears as demogoguery in the current debate of whether some transmission are an EmComm misappropriation of Amateur bands.

 

Bravo!!!! If only Newington would follow your lead. Imagine what could be avoided if more service oriented organizations like yours helped agencies avoid snake oil.

 

Consulting and donations

I don't think the ARRL has gotton donations from any hospitals or PD's to set up repeaters for them. No I am not implying your have either but that is my question. If the statement about inderect payment is OK then what is to stop someone from accepting a "donation" from a hospital of a repeater and setting it up as a closed system. Then accepting "donations" to maintain this system. This now ties up amatuer spectrum indirectly for a hospital. I would see this as a threat to amatuer radio and indirectly the Ham or Club is receiving money indirectly for their service.

Does anyone know how the PD that was busted a while back ended up installing ham radios in all the cars? I wonder if someone "consulted" them on the free benefits? Even if no donations are involved people drumming up agencies and their employees to boost our numbers on public support based on a low cost backup system or back up to the back up is dangerous to our spectrum.

In N4XTS's case he seems to have the professional background to do the consulting, "Joe Ham" on the other hand that might be out their pushing ham radio could easily cause more harm then good to amatuer radio.

Terry
AB8AL

 

You think this is a hot topic now and confusing, wait until HR-2160 passes giving Homeland Security more authority over how they think amateur radio should be used during emergencies. Homeland Security contracts out most of their services to private businesses. You might wake up and find your local "rent-a-cops" using your local repeater during the next emergency. No, it isn't the fault of the hams who post their concerns here on these forums, the fault belongs to those few hams out there who think they are God's gift to public service who have mis-informed the public service sector about amateur radio and those "know-it-alls" who wear those ARES hats who has mis-represented the Amateur Radio Service as an "Emergency Radio Service" for years. You need to be concerned about loosing your ham frequencies to public service. We are loosing them now, not to the FCC, but to hams within our own service who are employees of Homeland Security, FEMA, the National Weather Service, and your state and local emergency management and to the volunteers that suck up to them. Those agencies often make offers that hams can't refuse by using your tax dollars to buy repeater systems and equip Emergency Communications Centers with amateur radio gear and buy your local emergency manager that "dual-band" rig he always wanted but couldn't afford on his own. They have these hams put up repeaters, link them together and make it known that these are for "emergency use" only. The FCC has always allowed hams to be the "caretakers" of the amateur radio service and the ARRL is supposed to be our "voice" and represent us at the FCC and in Washington, but don't hold your breath and depend on the ARRL stepping into this debate.. they support 97.113 because it permits them to use paid staff members to broadcast their bulletins. The ARRL is a business, they sell goods and services for profit. Changing the rules would cut into their bottom line. Here in Oklahoma today, some county and city emergency managers are already in the process of having their employee's, staff, and volunteers get ham licenses and they plan on using amateur radio for their communications. They are well aware that their "public service" radio systems and licenses will need to comply with the new "narrowband" rules by January 1, 2013. If they don't, the FCC will revoke the old licenses and they will be subject to fines. This could be a costly venture for small cities and rural county agencies. Your Homeland Security has their finger in the pot here too.. they are recommending that all public service agencies use 800-900 Mhz trunking systems, which is even more expensive and is not very reliable in some rural areas. So, the hams who work for OR serve as volunteers within these agencies are planning on using amateur radio in rather than trying to improve their existing public safety radio systems. No, it isn't the Motorola salesman trying to push a sale. Its Homeland Security and hams from within our own Amateur Radio Service that is the driving force behind this. These are those few hams who thrive for attention and want to get their name in the local newspaper or on the evening news. These are hams who get a thrill out of seeing hams like you and me go at each other on these forums and who seek to distroy our beloved hobby so they can look good in the eyes of their emergency manager. No, I'm not against hams using amateur radio to help their community during an emergency or disaster. I don't of any ham who would not be willing to use his or her radio skills and communications capabilities to help their community in time of need. Since when does a ham have to be a member of ARES or their local emergency management to use ham radio to provide communications? Hams have organized and operated their own net for years without the likes of Homeland Security or local emergency management sticking their noses in. We need to get back to telling THEM that this is what ham radio is about and this is how we can help, rather than THEM dictating to us how they think we should use our skills and equipment. If they don't like it then let them use their own inadequate public service radio systems and stay the hell off the ham bands. As hams, we need to put our foot down NOW and put a stop to this nonsense before it gets any worse. We need to first stop HR 2160 in its tracks. If it passes, it could be the beginning of the end of ham radio as we know it today. Then we need to begin the clean-up and restoration of our bands by identifying those who use amateur radio for purposes other than what it is intended and telling them to clean up their act or hit the road. Any rule violations after that should be reported to the FCC, not the ARRL. Then, we need to start cleaning house at the ARRL and put some hams in Newington who will represent and protect the Amateur Radio Service for what it is, no sell it to the highest bidder for a better bottom line. You know, sometimes you just have to tell it like it is, that's my 2-cents worth for today.