Rising RF Noise Levels - IARU submits paper to CISPR

Have you considered that the issue might be poor receive filtering or some other issue in your radio? In other words, maybe your radio is responding to signals outside of the amateur band. Might be worth doing a side-by-side comparison with another radio to see if they both are being "interfered with." You could also use a (quality) spectrum analyzer to see if there really is RF present within the amateur allocation.

As much as I'm happy to blame external sources for interference (and I made a living doing this for many years), what you describe here sounds like an issue with the radio.

 

I have checked with other radios. My handheld does the same when i'm next to a bus and certain cars with certain LED lighting. Also, The area on I-10 that I was talking about even kills commercial satellite radio on my truck as well as the wife's' car and my brother-in-law's car as well.
Since I don't even have a NON-quality spectrum analyzer, there is no real way for me to tell. I can only go by when noise I hear. To be honest, would it surprise you if there WAS RF slipping into the amateur bands locally? ME, no. it would first have to be reported to someone who cared enough to deal with it and THEN have to get passed the "Money". This area is called the "Energy Corridor" for a reason. This is where a LOT of the oil companies have HUGE office complexes so they have HUGE money to counter anything put against them.
As for the buses and cars, I just live with it.

Mike
KG4NDS

 

That's exactly what I was going to say. Unfortunately, Radio Amateurs are not recognized as too important, until we do something that "saves the day." I feel it is highly unlikely there will be massive reduction in RFI or EMI emissions until it can be proven that these emissions have directly lead to or enhanced a major catastrophe. By then lives may have been unnecessarily lost.
73,
Art., N2KA..

 

I can not (totally) agree with this statement. I have observed (by experience) that when there is a spark in close proximity to the TV, such as is generated when a light switch is operated (or any switch causing a spark), the OTA Digital TV reception glitches out. Same thing happens whenever there is lightning close by, even when it is cloud to cloud. Perhaps this is because I am in a 'fringe area.' But, my experience (generally) is that 'sparks' interfere with my Digital OTA TV reception.

A lot of RFI, especially Power Line RFI, is the result of a spark being generated by the power company's distribution equipment. If the spark generates enough RF energy and it is in close proximity to the TV receiver the reception has to be affected.

Dan WQ4G

 

It's an internal paper.

 

Nah.

 

I designed MRI and NMR machines for scientific research and medical diagnostic applications.
MRI needs double shielded (and in some cases triple shielded) well-filtered equipment to function properly.
MRI does not transmit in amateur radio spectrum.
MRI machines are usually not the source of ham band noise.

I also provided EMC RF engineering for a large company which manufactures switching power supplies.
The kind of noise you describe is more likely due to the switched power device emissions which are utilized in lighting, charging, or motor control applications.
A large building complex with thousands of LED or electronic-fluorescent lights can have a massive RFI /EMC footprint... each lamp is an RF transmitter... the building wiring is an RF antenna.

City transport bus vehicles that run on batteries or overhead power lines have switched power device motor controllers.

Ferrites, coils, and capacitors cost money.
They require space and weight in the product.
Especially for very large power device products... those ferrites, coils, and capacitors can be a significant portion of the product components cost.
There are many manufacturers that simply remove and bypass RFI/EMC reduction circuitry components from their final production designs to cut costs.

Most of the time, they get away with it.
Who is stopping them?
Even in the unlikely event of a fine from a regulatory agency, the fine is always much less than the money they saved in ferrite and capacitor costs.

Monetary profit incentive encourages pollution of the electromagnetic spectrum.

We have an apocalyptic threat to RF communications... the proliferation of these switched power devices:

1. Consumer and industrial power supplies
2. Distributed solar and wind power conversion devices
3. Lighting systems of all types everywhere
4. Induction power (charging) systems (commercial and consumer)
5. Vehicles and their associated motor/power/charging/infrastructure systems

RF spectrum pollution continues to grow; within the next 10 or 20 years, the common suburban 100 watt HF amateur radio station will be rendered nearly useless due to RFI noise.

 

This is an excellent explanation - thank you so much for posting it!

I also work in EMC and interference hunting and I agree with every line of your post.

 

Hi Folks,

Wow some passion in discussion !

Yes its interesting to note the comments re "Cheap Chinese" equipment. Yet that and "Chinese" manufactured equipment - where most equipment these days is manufactured and on a contract to a price - is not the only concern.

Our main concern is our Regulators and their lack of teeth or willingness to investigate, act, demand fixes and prosecute offenders.

Equipment when sent for "C-Tick", "CE" or even FCC certification in subsequent releases can often be found to have the interference and noise suppression components "removed" (as cost-cutting measures???).

i.e. The certification is received, then subsequent equipment batches mysteriously has componentry removed ! This is even from MAJOR corporations whether its be Australian, Japanese, US or Chinese !

Regulators are unwilling to force recalls and prosecute offenders as many offenders are large corporations in their own nations (and hence political donors). Then there is the bad press issue from consumers that Governments would receive IF someone was no longer able to use their TV that they had just bought (or was 10 years old).

Additionally....

I use our VK case as an example, but from what i hear our case is not unique: Here in Australia our Regulator - The ACMA - Will NOT investigate Amateur Interference Claims as they claim that our equipment is "Too Sensitive".

[ This issue is a n0ted clear omission in the recent "Responsibilities" document found at https://www.acma.gov.au/sites/defau...dio-Regulatory-roles-and-responsibilities.pdf - though it is noted that a considerable amount of my lobbying appears in this and in subsequent pages at https://www.acma.gov.au/amateur-radio ]

Yet it should not just be my lobbying that is evident in communication: Matters raised here are for our Congressmen, Senators, Members of Parliament etc. and put together in sane, consistent arguments. Arguments work best if they not only come from Rep organisations - but are also supported by consistent and considered approaches from individuals.

These are also matters for the IARU to further raise heavily - if not to band together and coordinate action if required - to enforce compliance changes on Regulators. Remember a problem in one nation crosses borders - as does the ignorance. Many bureaucrats are not free-thinkers and rely on compliance to "the herd" (i.e. Sir Humphrey Appelby-ism from "Yes Minister").

Is the IARU cigar smoking and cognac-quaffing ceasing? Only time will tell !!!

73

Steve I
VK3VM / VK3SIR

 

Ps: Let's also not also just refer to RF Pollution... What about "Environmental Pollution" such as "Starlink" (aka "Starklink" or more dangerously "SkyNet") that just slipped past the entire world without a whimper - except from The Astronomy Community??? 16,000 of these things planned to zoom around !

 

While inferior devices are certainly a contributor there are other contributors that simply won't disappear.
the widespread use of both electronic and wireless devices helps create a substantial increase in the background noise floor.
Even back in the mid 2000's it was becoming evident.
When I was running a project for Motorola in a large southern city we had radio survey teams investigating the area for a predecessor of 5G.
These teams had vehicles, each equipped with various RF sampling systems. I would arrive at an airport in a different town and get picked up by one of the teams.
Just for our own interest we would then drive from that city to the target city with the collection equipment turned on.
You could easily see the background noise floor in different bands fall as we left the first city and then rise as we got close to the second city.
Bands with remote control devices, communications devices, etc were especially "polluted" and in the 2.4 GHz WiFi band it probably rose close to 20 dB.

(As a side note at the time over 75% of the WiFi APs we sampled were not secured.)

It's simply not going to be possible to contain the noise floor increase with regulations. (Not that we shouldn't try reasonable regulations.)
Only so much can be done in consumer devices at costs the markets will bare.
With the growth of electronic devices the regulations would have to be tightened by many dB every decade.

 

Are thyristors a major threat? Remember them as very nasty power-things.

 

I agree with your assessment however, I can only report what I have observed and being that I have never been in the building, I cannot say if there is an MRI device or any other type of medical imaging device in the building. HOWEVER, I DO know these facts:
1. There are several large office buildings in this small area.
2. the noise levels increase tremendously as I pass by either East or Westbound.
3. it seems to be louder when I'm traveling home in the afternoon headed Eastbound. This puts me on the south side of the interstate and closer to the buildings.
4. the noise SOMEWHAT sounds like 60 cycle hum but more harsh which could be power.
5. it stays consistent day after day but I cannot say about the weekend as I've not listened to see it it is. (I'll try and see if it is.)
I'm sure there is more I'm forgetting but oh well.

I'm sure I could record the noise but it it really worth posting here as it solves no problem. I've grown to work around it and if I'm in a QSO at the time, I just ask the other side to hold on while I pass that area. It only takes a few seconds and it's over.

Mike -- KG4NDS

 

16,000 is just the beginning they have approval for 30,000 more!! Thats just space X there are a bunch of other players who all want to put up their own constellations of satellites. Astronomers and the IARU protested but as usual in the face of big business it amounts to nothing. As a long time amateur astronomer and relatively new amateur radio operator I know with RF pollution and light pollution you are fighting a losing battle. People only care about what pertains to them (heck leaving lights on all night is costing them money and they still wont turn them off) and business cares about the bottom line. The massive RF pollution is not just wiping out our spectrum you have to believe it is having an affect on people as well no biological creature was intended to be bombarded with RF of every frequency at close range morning noon and night! Now getting anyone to listen? "The Lorax says nothing but with one sad backward glance lifts himself into the air "by the seat of his pants" and disappears behind the smoggy clouds."

 

Does it sound like recording of power line noise in the attached file? If you can post a recording of the noise, I can run a time- and/or frequency-domain analysis of the file (examples below) and see if there are peaks at 60 and 120 Hz, which is usually a very strong indicator that the problem is power line noise.

If it is in fact power-line noise, you at least know who is responsible for fixing it