PROPOSED: Only 2 Amateur Radio License Classes -- A Response to the FCC and an Invitation to Discuss

to clarify is to "add CW back Extra" as in order to get the Extra upgrade you have learn CW.

 

CW is easy. Morse code, by ear, is harder, and quite unnecessary to learn nowadays, though a perfectly good mode to use.
(CW technically refers to the emission of a sine wave, vs. a damped wave, not the code.)

 

I agree 100%

 

Their Videos are CXXX
SAMO OLE SAME OLS
XXXX.

LONG PASSSSS.


K8PG Paul

 

Two new classes?

Sure! How about these two?

 

THE ARRL needs more members to keep the doors open it's been going down for the last ten years.
And what about the cost to the FCC to change it over.

 

You resurrected a 5 month old thread for that?

I just happened to think of this thread for some reason a couple days ago and spent hours re-reading some of the comments to pick up on what was said. I had déjà vu from online conversations from something like 2004, perhaps earlier.

Getting back to the comment on learning CW for Extra... I'm quite certain that questions about CW are already on the written tests. I'm also quite certain that by "CW" you mean "Morse code". Do you recall my comments on the "art of the possible"? Perhaps not because, again, it's been something like 6 months ago. You can wish for Morse code testing to get Extra but the FCC has made it abundantly clear that they will not require Morse code knowledge testing for any privileges on Amateur radio. So, why bother to bring it up here? Wishful thinking? Stir the pot? Mental illness?

I've made this comment before that anyone asking for Morse code testing requirements to be restored are not someone I can take seriously, that such comments must be made in jest as there's plenty of evidence that the FCC has no interest in reopening that can of worms.

Maybe, possibly, with a long list of supporters, a firm but polite request for an optional Morse code endorsement on the Amateur license is a request that the FCC might agree to. Maybe. That's the best I'd expect you'd get from them, and even that is a long shot.

I was thinking of starting a new thread as a kind of follow-up to this thread where I'd ask something like, "What does the FCC want in Amateur radio licensing?" Maybe I will start that thread later. Clearly the FCC wants "delete, delete, delete" as that was their mandate from above. Creating a path to two license classes for Amateur radio would simplify things. How do we get there?

Extra remains Extra because that's the top license and changing the privileges or name would only add complexity. I'd propose a new license class, which I'll call "Basic" for now but it could be any name but what was used before. This would add new rules but I'm not done yet.

Basic would have the same testing requirements as the current General. Privileges would be largely similar (but not identical) to the "Basic+HF" from Canada. 200 watts maximum, all modes, all bands, all frequencies. No operating same band repeaters, cross band repeat is fine. No VE privileges. I could go on but hopefully people get the general idea.

Advanced and General would renew as Basic something like a year after the order goes into effect, to give some time for word to get out on the new privileges. On that same date Novice would no longer be eligible for renewal, Technician would be "grandfathered", no more new Technician licenses would be issued.

I'd like to have some kind of "sunset" for Technician to trim that off the FCC database like General, Advanced, and Novice but with so many people licensed as Technician and no real equivalent in the new two-tier licensing there's no easy answer on what to do. Maybe set a date years out in the future where no more renewals would be granted? Allow Technician to renew indefinitely or until the FCC grows tired of this like with Novice and Advanced?

Would the FCC go for this? I'd think so, except maybe creating a new Basic license than just keeping the name as General but with new privileges. I'm proposing a new license name so that the holder of the license has it clear in their mind that something changed, they need to review the new rules, and the FCC won't be flooded with questions all at once with what's up if instead the privileges for General changed on some given date. Rather it should be a trickle over time as people renew, and should fade quickly as word spreads on what the new license means. This would create something of a one-time enforcement burden in the now to save on enforcement for years, perhaps decades, into the future.

I want to avoid accusations of "dumbing down" the licensing. Toward that end I set the bar higher for entry into Amateur radio, and this bar would be identical to that for General. I want to avoid accusations of a "gimme" so Technician privileges would not change. Privileges for Advanced, General, and Novice would not change either but rather Advanced and General get testing credit for their current license towards Basic. The rule changes are pretty dramatic but also quite simple so hopefully the FCC would agree that no new testing would be required.

I'm trying to keep my comments shorter but in re-reading this thread I noticed people asking what I had in mind specifically for a new two-tier license system so I thought I'd spell it out. This is something I've posted before but it's apparently difficult to find in the thread. It's not something I'm setting in stone, I'm flexible on the specifics. I just want anyone proposing new rules to keep "art of the possible" in mind since there's things the FCC simply will not do. One is no more Morse code testing requirements. If that is proposed here on QRZ.com then expect it to be dismissed as a joke. If proposed to the FCC then also expect the request to be treated like a joke, if they reply at all then it will be a statement that is the legal equivalent of laughing in your face.

 

To hold CW as a must for a the big license in ham radio seems to me like nonsense. In former times CW was for telegram transmitting. Not many had to give it directly. It was wrote first with a flexowriter to make a paper tape.

The paper tape came into the machine of the transmitter. On the other side machines with a pencil wrote short and long stripes, when the signal came. It was clearly to read. So why the hell ham radio needs such those strange things?

The telegram boys dont exist anymore, too. At next there is no need for the Pony Express anymore, Americans have cars.

 

Das ist eine starke Zehn-Vier!

Not sure why HAM even has that cotton pickin Beep Dee Beep Code. Not only should they never test on it, it should be banned from the airwaves.

Quite frankly, CW disgusts me. Feh! FEH! Besides, it’s a waste of paper tape. They kill trees for that, ja??

 

Yes, this thread is too old and repetitive. But what the hey.

Your two-license plan has one flaw, easy to fix. By granfathering everyone but Extra as basic, you'd lose HAREC status for the Advanced OTs. In much of the ROW, HAREC counts as a multinational full ham license exam. CEPT accepts the US Advanced as HAREC, but not General.

So if we did have two classes, I'd make the upper one HAREC-compliant, but easier than the Extra, which is full of trivia that experienced hams may know but is a bear to learn from scratch (vs. maybe memorizing Q&As, which is to be discouraged). Call that Full. Advanced and Extra would be grandfathered there. And then there's be a Basic class, more like today's Tech test, as entry level. I'd grandfather Techs into that, but of course with updated privileges, not Morse-only below 28 MHz. And maybe leave General alone as a grandfathered class the way Advanced is now, full power, most freq's, but not HAREC approved.

 

BING-A-DINGDINGDINGDING!!

Just couldn’t let this pass without comment, even though I’m juuuuuust a bit off topic. :-D

This is precisely why the Extra Class used to require two years of General experience or better before you could even sit for the exam.

Diligent memorizers can pass the Extra on Day One, yet not know where to screw in a PL259, or which end of the soldering iron to hold.

Just sayin’.

Nah, not asking our beloved FCC to modify how exams are administered and how study material is released. Won’t do that. I may be a fool, but there is a limit to my folly.

I don’t like when people rip the Extra Class, and imply that obtaining that ticket immediately lowers your technical and operating skills. But we can’t deny that an Extra ticket holder with no experience seems silly.

Oh well. Pardon the interruption. Carry on.

 

As I stated above I considered a new thread to continue this conversation but with a different focus and separate that conversation from some of the noise in the signal that developed here, titled something like "What does the FCC want? (A response to: PROPOSED: Only 2 Amateur Radio License Classes)"

It's fine to ponder what we'd all want in Amateur ratio licensing but if the FCC would never agree to those wishes, as based on prior statements they've made, then it's just daydreaming than an actual plan to act. I'd rather we take this conversation to something that results in real change from the FCC than the current conversation of wishful thinking and pining for the fjords... I mean, pining for the licensing of yesteryear.

I'm not proposing that everyone but Extra gets grandfathered as Basic, only General and Advanced. Perhaps more accurately I'm not even grandfathering General and Advanced as Basic but rather declaring that General and Advanced cannot be renewed but instead those licenses that are current or in the grace period get test credit for Basic. If someone with Advanced wants to remain a licensed Amateur then they can use that license for test credit for Basic with no added testing, or use that license for test credit to Extra after passing a single additional exam. They would not have to wait for the renewal window to get the "sidegrade" (it's not an upgrade or downgrade, more a step to the side on the hierarchy of licensing) to Basic, they can apply for this license at any VE testing session.

I don't recall seeing HAREC before, I likely did see it before but ended up with a mental 404 on that. A quick search brought me here: https://www.arrl.org/cept
And here: https://radioamateur.eu/Legge_CEPT-TR6102E.pdf

I'm not seeing anything to indicate that any FCC license qualifies for HAREC. Further, HAREC is about allowing a license from one nation to be used as testing credit in another nation for their license, not just a temporary reciprocity for people on a vacation or other short visit. CEPT covers temporary visits, and if reciprocity is a concern then we'd want Basic to be on the same level as General so that at least the entry level license from the FCC grants the CEPT Limited privileges, if an Amateur wants CEPT Full privileges then they can upgrade to Extra.

What is gained by any changes to Extra? The FCC wants to keep things simple. If the FCC ends issuance of Extra as it is now then that would force a re-evaluation of the reciprocal licensing agreements already in place and risk seeing this new FCC Full license lose the status Extra has under CEPT, IARU, and other reciprocity agreements.

Also, I really really don't want to open up the can of worms of "dumbing down" licensing in any petition to the FCC. It's bad enough as it is to get support for license changes from licensed Amateurs.

The goal is to simplify, and changing the testing for Extra, Full, or whatever the top license is called, just adds complications for the FCC, the VEC/QPC/whatchamacallit, and licensed Amateurs. Without some clearly articulated problem to solve I'd propose leaving Extra alone. At least for this round of license changes, maybe in the future as we see how a new two-tier license works out. I was reluctant to even propose a new Basic license but I thought if I had not then that's opening up the proposal to a different set of complaints. Making Advanced and Extra equivalent to Full violates the rule the FCC stated clearly that there was not to be any upgrade in privileges without testing. I'm skirting that rule by having Basic lose some General/Advanced privileges here to gain them over there, it's a "sidegrade" than an upgrade. Maybe the FCC would agree, maybe not, but since it is not making General or Advanced equivalent to Extra then it might get by the FCC.

If everything but Extra is lumped into Basic, and Basic has the same testing requirements as Technician, then why use a new name? Again, I'm not sure my idea of Basic as a near equivalent to General would get past the FCC as that violates the "delete, delete, delete" dictate from on high, it's adding a new license class but I believe I justified it. If not then what we have is Advanced renews as General, and General sees some privilege changes. If we go with your plan then it's Advanced and General renew as Technician, and Technician get new privileges.

Given the opposition that arises from any changes to Technician privileges, a general view of Technician as a "second class citizen" in Amateur radio due to the low bar to clear on testing, I'd rather we just grandfather Technician and set the bar to clear to enter Amateur radio where it is now for General. The consensus I'm seeing is that testing for General is not terribly difficult for even children to pass. One concern I see about Technician, or any entry level license, is the amount of allow RF power. If 200 watts was "safe" for Novice for however many decades that license was issued then it should be "safe" for Basic (or whatever the entry level license would be called), so long as the testing for Basic is at least as rigorous as it was for Novice.

We could grandfather General and allow renewal to the end of time as we do with Advanced but the "vibe" I got from the FCC is they want any excuse to trim down the number of license classes they need to track. In the FCC commercial licensing there was something like 4 phone licenses and 4 telegraph licenses when accounting for the varied endorsements. They trimmed that down to 2 phone licenses, 1 telegraph license, 2 GDMSS, and a radar endorsement. Many people with a commercial license lost privileges in that shuffle, but it simplified enforcement for the FCC quite a bit.

I don't know how much of a concern HAREC is to Amateurs in the USA. What I picked up as a greater concern was CEPT, IARP, and Morse code credit. Novice and Technician don't allow for any privileges under CEPT. All currently FCC issued Amateur licenses have limited privileges under IARP because there's no indication of demonstrated Morse code knowledge. The ARRL is allowed to certify demonstrated Morse code knowledge for full privileges under IARP. If the concern is agreement with HAREC, CEPT, IARP, or other reciprocity agreements then the Morse code issue should be as much as consideration as the content of the written tests. The FCC could make this happen with an optional Morse code endorsement on the Amateur radio license. I don't know how much of an added enforcement burden this would be to the FCC but it would likely be less than the burden of tracking 5 or 6 licenses.

We could "sunset" every license but Extra, then put in place Basic. With a Morse code endorsement that would be effectively 4 licenses, and each should map nicely to reciprocal licenses under CEPT, IARP, and so on. We "sunset" Novice and Technician by setting some kind of date where they would no longer be eligible for renewal, Technician would grant a written test credit, Novice a Morse code credit. Advanced and General would also lose renewal at some date but since those grant test credit for Basic in effect those would renew as Basic. Extra remains Extra, but if people choose they can add a Morse code endorsement by showing they passed the test before or passing the test at a VE testing session.

Obviously I'm preferring my own ideas on a new two-tier license structure. Part of why I'm defending it than going along with what @K8QS and @WA9TDD proposed is that I want to avoid the can of worms that would come with "dumbing down" the licensing. I believe it is clear the FCC doesn't want a lower bar for the top tier license that is Extra, which tells me to not touch that with even a 30 foot pole. Changing privileges for Technician is a "third rail" that is also something I'd like to avoid. I'm already bending some rules on what the FCC and vocal Amateurs want by having General and Advanced license be considered proof of test credit for Basic. I'm bending the FCC rule on no more Morse code testing with the Morse code endorsement. If the concern is reciprocal licensing then not only would we not want to "dumb down" the written tests in any way we'd also want some simple means to have demonstrated Morse code knowledge shown on the same document that shows having passed the requisite written tests.

I apologize for the long comment, it's a tough habit to break. I was asked direct questions that I thought deserved a complete answer. This is an old thread and many times we appear to be going in circles. I believe we'd have a lot less of this going in circles if every time there's a suggestion for licensing changes that the "art of the possible" is kept in mind by asking what this would mean for the FCC. The FCC wants things simple. The FCC wants to "delete, delete, delete" so if any one thing is added then at least two things need to be deleted to make up for it.

 

There is no rule that prohibits "dumbing down" as you call it, or giving more privileges without a harder test. The FCC makes its rules, period. They are only bound by the very loose language of the Communications Act. So while any tweaks to ham rules today are probably only hypothetical, if they were to become interested, they are not constrained as you think.

CEPT is the organization that defines the HAREC requirements. I don't think you understood the terms. The idea that everyone in Europe and most of the rest of the world, it seems, accepts is that the HAREC requirements are what a full license requires. Countries which grant reciprocal licenses, then, also view other countries' HAREC-compliant licenses as adequate for their own full privileges. That's the point of having a HAREC license. It's not easy but it's not a trivia test. Look at some reciprocal rules and you'll see how the US Advanced is given full credit while General often is not.

Downgrading existing privs is the harder thing to sell, not upgrading them. The Extra was, for some years, a pretty certificate to hang on the wall above and beyond the General's full privs. I see no reason to require it if licenses are simplified, but of course it could be grandfathered. General might be grandfathered and Full (HAREC compliant) the replacement, with an entry level (Basic) added.

 

This reminds me of sports discussion groups, where fans create 15 page posts about who the team should trade and who the team should sign and who the manager should be and how many innings a starting pitcher should throw and who the closer should be and whether they approve of the pitch clock and whether they like the extra innings “ghost” runner and whether there should be a DH and whether there should be a salary cap and GAAAASSSP!!!! I NEED TO BREATHE…… just a second… and… and… and a whole lot of other things they have no control over.

Yeah, that’s what this reminds me of.

 

It shouldnt be banned. And who likes it, why not? On the other side much operators are thinking that they can do CW. Some are really pros, the most are not.

And to save the hobby here in Germany, the public needs to know that CW is the past. And this is just one point to save the scene or the hobby locally.

To many strange public events with some joking CW operators, who are showing what ham radio really is in their mind.