Positive Encouragement

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC0LNU @ June 08 2004,12:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh how many times have someone posted something on QRZ in good faith to express an opinion, ask for help, or look for different ways to do things just to be shot down by the nay sayers.

For those who live to put people down or put them in their place, don't you realize you catch more flies with sugar?

Common folks -- Amateur Radio is not about baby sitting (or crying for that matter)  It is about partnering with others to learn something new -- expand our knowledge of electronics and radio communication.

For those of you who don't get this, no problem.  There is plenty of room on 11 Meters   [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I would go as far to say that you are &quot;169% correct&quot;, but you have some truth in what you say...

I have not seen an instance of anyone being shot down by the naysayers, I have however seen wrong info given and then corrected by others that have more/better knowledge.

There is a core group on QRZ that are well versed in the hobby as a whole and they are the ones to be trusted.

a note about elmering;
Please remember that you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink... or is that you can lead a dog to a fireplug but you cannot make him pee?...

There is only one person to blame if they come into the hobby without any idea about the hobby... that is the new ham! Just how did he get a license? Did someone take the test for him? At some time, he must have been drawn to the hobby, he must have seen the hobby in action... he must have read some publication about getting a license, he must have attended a class. I know of NO ONE that has ever walked down the street, saw a sign &quot;ham exams&quot;, walked in, took a test, and walked out with a license, without having been exposed to ham radio in the first place.

At our classes, we stress &quot;ham radio in real time&quot;.

The only people that &quot;get put in their place&quot; are those that want to make radical changes...

for example...

A new subdivision is built next to an old family farm. Now the farmer has been working the land for fifty years, but the residents of the new homes want the farmer to stop running his tractor...

 

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">At our classes, we stress &quot;ham radio in real time&quot;. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

You have a valid point.

Also would have loved the opportunity to attend some of your classes. Sounds like a good group of people!

 

I kind of tend to believe that a ham who somehow manages to pass the exams yet knows nothing at all about the hobby is for the most part an aberration. Most people (other than maybe ones who's parents or spouse pushed them into it) found out about ham radio due to a curiosity, and did a fair amount of &quot;research&quot; into what the hobby is all about before memorizing exam questions.

I do feel that the internet is a real mixed bag when it comes to &quot;elmering&quot;. There are too many trolls and losers who like to get jollies off of flaming others. Real elmering in my opinion comes from face to face interaction with local area hams who are easy going and willing to help.

I've never heard of this stuff about biting someone's head off because they want to be &quot;spoon fed&quot; either. Again, if someone legitimately has interest in the hobby, they're not looking to be led by the hand every step of the way anyway (unless they have a learning disability). In fact, more often than not what I've noticed is that those who just got their license don't WANT to be elmered. They feel they know it all better instantly and are ready to dish out lectures to others on topics they don't understand. Personally, I'd rather deal with someone needing spoon feeding than a know-it-all know nothing arrogant you-know-what.

 

OK, we've seen that side of the story. Now let's look at the other side.

Here's this fellow who has been a ham for 35 years or so. He happens to be listening to a repeater and he hears some recent newcomer saying, &quot;Yeah, 10-4, I'm going to be at my 20 in a few minutes and I'll give you a 21.&quot;

Not a darned thing illegal about that. But it sure isn't ham lingo; it is CB lingo. Like me, this old fella feels if CBers can have their own lingo, and their traditions, (as they do) we hams can have ours, and we do not have to adopt theirs. So he hops in there with the intent to tell this fellow doing all the 10-4s, that we don't use ten-codes on ham radio. In response he gets, &quot;F... you, A hole.&quot; Or the two guys talking don't even let him in, but discuss that &quot;radio cop trying to tell us how to run our radios.&quot;

He has learned something important. He has learned that the newcomer isn't interested in joining ham radio, and isn't interested in learning how we do things over here, and has no respect for this hobby. He has also learned he will not attempt to teach anyone else again. &quot;Let 'em go to hell,' he thinks, and he stops listening to the repeater and goes back to HF.

Later on he hears a couple of Extra class hams talking. One of them says &quot;I have a resistor here, but I don't know if it's good or not. Do you know how to tell?&quot; The other replies, &quot;No, I'm not too good on that technical stuff.&quot;

Now our OT has learned something else important. He has learned that the new Extra has no knowledge of electronics. This means the new Extra really isn't 'extra' at anything, but is actually a novice. Our OT realizes this new Extra, who is a member of the Teacher Class of ham radio, can't teach anything to anyone, as he doesn't know anything.

Now the OT sits back and asks himself, &quot;So who IS going to teach the newcomer, if the highest class of license holder can't?&quot; And, he gets his answer: &quot;No one, and darned good thing, for the newcomer doesn't want to learn anyway.&quot;

Extreme case? Well, sure, but it is a composite of things I have heard on the air. Quite a few people coming into the hobby of ham radio today already know all there is to know for they have spent 20 years in CB. They are experts, right? &quot;Been in radio for 20 years.&quot; So (and I am speaking generally; yes there are exceptions) they have the attitude they don't need to learn anything. And sadly, there's no one around to teach them.

Well, there may be someone around. But he isn't willing to do it because he has been put in his place very rudely a couple of times. Not worth the aggravation.

All this began when we accepted CB radio as the ham radio training ground. When we recruited students into ham radio who had never touched a CB, we had great success. They knew they knew nothing, and they wanted to learn. They studied, they learned procedures, operating practices, and even electronics! Today, though, CB is the &quot;pre-entry&quot; to ham radio. It is our farm team. So the graduates of the CB Radio Course come into ham radio as self-proclaimed 'experts.'

Results? We have many newcomers who are not interested in learning ham radio, but only in learning how to do CB on the ham bands. We have many experts who can barely find the power switch. And we have many OTs with real knowledge who are unwilling to try to share it as they run up against the &quot;I ain't gonna do it that way&quot; and &quot;up yours&quot; crowd. With no-one to teach, and no-one to learn, where we wind up is hardly worthy of guessing.

All that is, of course, not necessarily indicative of the hams you know, or I know. We have some wonderful newcomers to this hobby, willing to learn, willing to admit they need to learn, and willing to drop their CB attitudes and practices. We have some higher class licensees who are definitely knowledgeable, and willing to help those who sincerely want help. And we have some OTs who not only are willing to swap knowledge - to teach about radio while learning about digital methods - but who go out of their way to help others.

But the other type is growing. The OTs simply retreat into the background and do their operating or building or restoring in private. And ham radio becomes even more divided, not just into the plus or minus 50 MHZ operating, but the ones who could teach but won't, and those who could learn but won't. Our paths are diverging. Eventually the path of the knowledgeable OTs will come to a dead end, for they will be gone.

No one is taking their place.

Ed

 

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W5HTW @ June 09 2004,18:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now the OT sits back and asks himself, &quot;So who IS going to teach the newcomer, if the highest class of license holder can't?&quot;   And, he gets his answer:   &quot;No one, and darned good thing, for the newcomer doesn't want to learn anyway.&quot;  [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Therein lies the problem.  Most newcomers don't want to be told anything.  They consider themselves to be instant elmers.

I've seen the same thing at work.  Bring in a guy with no experience right out of college and suddenly he's the instant expert, busy trying to correct the senior engineers or management on things he doesn't grasp yet, kopping an attitude about what work he will and will not do (it's beneath him, even though the rest of us have done it as a rite of passage), and just generally being a totally smart a-$$ type.

I'm not an &quot;OF&quot; quite yet, but I see these same trends.  I always had the mindset of learning the ropes, paying respect to those senior to your position until you master your art, and then there's the passing of the torch, where you become the teacher to the next upcoming generation.  Trouble is, the next upcoming group tries to tell YOU how to run things, or comes out with the &quot;F U&quot; attitude, and that's what causes so much resentment.  

At work, a contractor just lost his contract partly because of these attitude issues.  So, it's not just in ham radio, and others are also tired of it.

 

Therein lies the problem.  

The divide is greater than I thought.

Some of the old timers feel all of the new folks don't want to learn.

Some of the new folks feel the old timers are snobs, know it alls, and don't want to do anything but complane and point fingers

The rest of us who just want to enjoy the hobby (or service) are caught in the middle.

Guess how severely you're impacted by this negative behavior depends on the area you're operating in.

To both groups -- please do not assume anything.  Remember what the first three letters of assume spell don't be one

 

Isn't the cart being put in front of the horse just a little.First of all it is made to sound like the OT's are required to mentor the new people.I am not saying it is not true in most cases but is it not being accepted as fact, before it has been proven.What about all those OT's that have been told to&quot; shove it&quot; don't they have the right to turn and walk off ? It seems to me the new people have a little PR problem.If they are going to get the united cooperation from the OT crowd they will have to present, first a reason to cooperate by presenting a united front of cooperation. I, myself although probably fit more into the OF crowd which is a status I'm proud that I was able to achieve,many of my friends over the years did not make it.However as such I have turned and walked away from several new people, as I was not in the mood, nor did I feel I was required to take any of their crap and at the same time they wanted me to SPOON feed them so they would not have to put forth effort on their part. I think it was HTW who talked about OT/OF's simply turning their backs and retreating back to their own building and tinkering projects.Most of us learned many years ago that Amateur Radio is an on going learning process,and even though we have been learning for 5 decades, we are still learning.It is and was that learning and tinkering challenge that sparked our interest in the first place.So is it a consideration for us to set aside our interests,so that some one can waste our time(which may be limited) trying to decide if they want to play with radio?
I see it as an attitude adjustment on the part of the new people, possibly a new PR approach. Now this is not a blanket condemnation of all the new people,some can assess the situation immediately and make the required display of sincerety,those are the ones who are usually too busy studying their upgrades to whine and cry,and to tell the truth they are afforded preferential treatment for their efforts. I don't speak for everyone only my view of the situation,others can add their views,and express how they want to spend their time,and I'm speaking of the OT/OF's NOT the newbies,their position should be to listen and learn,you retain far greater knowledge when you listen than when you whine.......

 

&quot; Here's what happened. When the no-code Tech was introduced, it ruffled the feathers of higher class hams because they didn't want to share the same bands with the &quot;unwashed masses of no-coders&quot;. This effectively turned everything above 50 MHz into a &quot;ghetto&quot; where the higher class licenses would not move the VFO above 50 MHz. They would rather stay in their country club of the HF bands. All the
knowledge and mentoring went below 50 MHz as the no-code haters abandoned the VHF and UHF bands. &quot;


Man, am I ever glad that was explained!!!!!

Hi.

Seriously though. Funny how when I work anyone on the bands, HF thru UHF, I never once asked, &quot;Hey, what license class are you anyway??&quot;

Means little to me. I figure if they are licensed to be there, what do I care what class license they are?!

Sounds more like a bad attitude to me then reality.

 

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W0LC @ June 09 2004,11:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seriously though.  Funny how when I work anyone on the bands, HF thru UHF, I never once asked, &quot;Hey, what license class are you anyway??&quot;[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Thank you

Heck, the fact they're there and operating properly is good enough for me!

 

5--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WF7I @ June 09 2004,215)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Therein lies the problem.  Most newcomers don't want to be told anything.  They consider themselves to be instant elmers.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
&quot;Most&quot; newcomers? I don't know about &quot;most&quot; newcomers, but if it were legal to do so, I'd pay someone to elmer me! I don't expect the longtimers to imbue me with their knowledge just because I'm new and ignorant. I know enough to know when I don't know anything, but if no one can or is willing to help, then I guess I need to find out for myself.