Out of band for fire/ems/whatever.

Discussion in 'General Technical Questions and Answers' started by KC7YRA, Feb 5, 2008.

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  1. K7JEM

    K7JEM Ham Member QRZ Page

    No, I agree. It wouldn't matter if the VCO had to be realigned on them or not, however.

    In this case absolutely nothing has to be done to them.

    They're still not certified for amateur use, though. Fortunately, no certification is needed for amateur use.

  2. WA9SVD

    WA9SVD Ham Member QRZ Page

    We at least agree on something.

    But I don't know why you keep stating something is "not certified for Amateur use." That statement alone implies that there IS some sort of certification requirement for Amateur equipment (which there is not,) and is misleading at best.

    If a radio is certificated for "136-174 MHz," then it would me usable on Amateur frequencies, as-is, even if there WERE a cert. requirement for Amateur equipment. (Otherwise, the radio would have to say "Certified for 136-144, and 148-174 MHz.")
  3. K7JEM

    K7JEM Ham Member QRZ Page

    Mainly because the radio ISN'T certified for amateur use, and can't be, since no certification is given or required.

    The radio isn't certified for 136-174, that is the frequency range that the manufacturer has placed on it. It is certified for certain services, such as part 90, 22, 74, etc, for certain modes, bandwidths, and power levels, over that particular range. If you look at the certificate (which is the certification), then you will see that part 97 is not included.

    The certification takes in a whole realm of possibilities, not just the frequency of operation.

    They don't have to leave frequencies out. The radio is certificated for 136-174, part 90 service. Yet there are no part 90 services between 144 and 150, probably not many, if any, below 144. IF there were part 90 services in the 144 to 148 range the radio would be fine to operate on them.

    Since the classes of service are included on the certificate, and part 97 is not there, it is easy to see that the radio is not certified for amateur radio service, just like virtually every other radio out there (regardless of its ability to actually operate on the 2M band).

    This is just to throw a reality check to people that think the radio IS certified when operating on HR frequencies.

  4. K9STH

    K9STH Platinum Subscriber Volunteer Moderator Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    As far as "finding someone to program the radio for you" goes anyone can now program a radio for 47 CFR Part 90 and many other services. A GROL has not been required for programming, servicing, aligning, etc., any radio in the land mobile service for well over 2 decades. Now the FCC can require that someone with a GROL "recertify" a particular radio that has been "caught" out of technical specifications. However, this is almost never done these days.

    Back when the FCC was monitoring the various services (including amateur radio) on a regular basis it was very common for a notice of violation to be issued to the licensee of a commercial (i.e. land mobile) system. The licensee had like 10 days to get the unit repaired and recertified by someone holding the proper FCC license. These violations were generally issued for being outside of the frequency tolerance or for having modulation that exceeded the maximum deviation allowed.

    I have often "told the tale" of the engineer-in-charge of the FCC monitoring station in Powder Springs, Georgia (suburb of Atlanta), that was caught speeding by the Marietta, Georgia (another suburb of Atlanta), police department who took revenge on that police department. He would telephone the dispatcher at the police department almost every Saturday morning telling them that they were "on the brink" of operting illegally. The department would telephone Atlanta Communications (the Motorola Service Station) and a technician would be dispatched to verify the operating conditions of the base station at the police department. This was my junior year at Georgia Tech and I was working for Atlanta Communications. Since I was "low man on the totem pole" I usually got sent up to Marietta with our latest and greatest frequency measuring device (a Measurements 760 which was sold by Motorola as the T-1021).

    It took about a half hour for the frequency measuring device to warm up and then I would monitor the frequency of the base station for a couple of hours. Not once did the station ever even come close to being off frequency.

    After a couple of months the mayor of Marietta contacted the local Congressman about the actions of the FCC official. The particular engineer was transferred and the "problem" of being "off frequency" never happened again.

    A GROL is required for maritime and aviation services. However, these days for land mobile no license is required at all for servicing. For recertifying under certain conditions, yes, but for general servicing, no.

    The frequency range of 138 MHz to 144 MHz and for 148 MHz to 150.8 MHz is generally used by the federal government although there are a few land mobile licensees in that frequency range. Motorola, Uniden, and the rest of the commercial two-way radio manufacturers generally do get certification on their equipment for that range even though, technically, the government agencies are exempt from FCC certification. However, the NTIA generally uses the same technical standards as the FCC so by getting the equipment certified for this range basically kills two birds with one stone.

    When I owned several commercial community repeaters (450 MHz to 470 MHz) I programmed all of them into my personal mobile units as well as into a control station at my house. Then the rest of the available frequencies in the units were programmed for amateur radio repeaters in the 70 cm band. This was completely legal.

    Again, as several people have pointed out time and time again, the best option for an amateur radio operator who wants to use the same radio for both commercial applications and for amateur radio operation is to obtain a certified/type-accepted radio and have frequencies for both uses installed. This is legal whereas modifying amateur radio equipment to be used on the commercial frequencies is not legal.

    Glen, K9STH
  5. N3UED

    N3UED Ham Member QRZ Page

    Is Romper Room over? Come on people those that don't want non-type accepted radios to be used please step to the left. All others please continue your daily business. There is nothing else to see here. Really! Go away!

    My personal view... Well I would tell you then I would be letting you know the secrets to my success over the years. Let me just state this for the record. Every amateur radio I have ever gotten my hands on I have modified in some way...... In doing this I have accidentally activated the transmit mod function as well..... :D:D:D

    Have a great day!!!
  6. WA9SVD

    WA9SVD Ham Member QRZ Page

    May the FCC shine it's light upon you, when... but that would be letting out secrets of their success.
  7. KC9JIQ

    KC9JIQ QRZ Member QRZ Page

    Does not matter, since you can use any frequency, but ONLY IF IT'S USED IN "EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS" so can't firefighters and EMS dudes use ANY frequency? Since it IS emergency communications.

    Explain that!:confused:
  8. K7JEM

    K7JEM Ham Member QRZ Page

    The FCC definition of "emergency communications" is very specific. Most communications carried on by PS type agencies does not qualify, but some of it does.

    The intent of that rule is not to mean that "anything goes" all of the time.

  9. K9STH

    K9STH Platinum Subscriber Volunteer Moderator Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page


    The FCC regulations also specify in an emergency (immediate situation involving the safety of life and/or property) situation IF no other method of communications is available. They take a very "dim" view of using modified amateur radio equipment on anything that even resembles a regular basis. Even when the situation is critical you will have some serious justifying to the FCC if you use modified amateur radio equipment.

    Just ask the Philadelphia Fire Department about using amateur radio equipment! That department decided to save a "few" dollars by purchasing and modifying amateur radio equipment and not purchasing certified equipment. They received a huge fine from the FCC, had to get rid of the amateur equipment, then purchase certified equipment. The total cost of this was like 3 times what purchasing certified equipment would have been in the first place.

    Glen, K9STH
  10. WA9SVD

    WA9SVD Ham Member QRZ Page


    You are also neglecting the fact that even IF the FCC does not get involved in a case of "out-of-band" operation by Amateurs using modified Amateur equiopment (or ANY equipment for that matter) the Piublic Service Agencies can still call into play local laws about "interefering with Police/Fire?Emergency" Communications. Even in cases of perceived danger, civilians that have transmitted on Public Service frequencies HAVE gotten into quite a bit of trouble.
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