Operating on 60 meters

Discussion in 'Ham Radio Discussions' started by WY4K, Mar 15, 2019.

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  1. KP4SX

    KP4SX XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    You gonna issue citations based on that?
    Anyway, the ARRL has the obligation to step into this fray and provide some clarification. They are our link to this sort of rulemaking. Until then there's going to be a lot of individual interpretation. Why are they not doing so?
     
  2. KK5JY

    KK5JY Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    As I said earlier, and repeatedly, nobody is going to issue citations. FCC doesn't do amateur enforcement anymore. The enforcement issue is both tangential and moot.

    The question is operating within the rules. "Self-policing" and all that.
    I certainly think they should do so, just because of all the stuff they have said on the subject of FT8 and seperately on the subject of 60m. Their complete silence on the current misbehavior on 5357kHz is very misleading. Just ask @W0PV. ;)
    We can only speculate.

    I tend to suspect that they may not want to intervene in what is going on at 5357kHz, but rather let it continue, and then let that be evidence that (a) NTIA doesn't care about losing a channel here and there, and (b) that "typical" amateur digimode usage patterns aren't harmful, even within secondary allocations. and (c) the service needs more 60m space, due to high demand (20%+ of the current 60m allocation being used daily for just one mode).

    In short, they may be passively making arguments similar to those made earlier by W0PV.

    Again, that's just my own conjecture. If that's actually what's going on, it would be poor judgement IMHO.

    Have you tried to give them a call and ask?
     
  3. N1FM

    N1FM Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    No, if you're calling CQ, you're using the channel. When someone answers, he's using the channel. That operation is as opposed to thirty FT-8 users on the same channel at once. See?
     
  4. AA5CT

    AA5CT Ham Member QRZ Page

    Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ... let me get this straight.

    We're to operate, ONE signal at a time, in the exact center of the channel so the NTIA and FCC can identify ... a signal transmitted by a ham.

    Makes sense, for voice, and even for CW especially if one does not have a sharp filter in the receiver being used by one of the two above agencies OR one of their licensees. Multiple CW signals within a few Hz of each other could be quite problematic to copy, if their amplitudes are a close match.

    Now lets consider ... a digital signal such as FT8 on 60 meters.

    Obviously, the identity of any given operator/station cannot be identified by use of human ear alone. I don't care HOW good a musical ear a person has, and the FCC or NTIA in all likelihood doesn't employ such a person talented person anyway soooooooooooo said agency probably uses S/W much in line with what we use to 'work' such digital signals, e.g. JS8CALL, WSJT-X or JTDX.

    Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ... GIVEN that said S/W is capable of copying more than one signal at a time (even when they sometimes overlap) and displaying associated callsigns, what is the reason for requiring only one 'digital' signal (e.g. FT8) at a time operating in the center of the channel?
     
  5. KK5JY

    KK5JY Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    If you look at @N1FM's quotes on the matter, it's actually quite clear what the reason is. The primary users have the right to ask for the channel to be immediately vacated, and the secondary users (us) are required by the rule to immediately cease operation when so requested.

    How does an NTIA-authorized voice user "ask the channel" to immediately cease operation, when THIS is going on?

    upload_2019-3-20_18-0-38.png
    (image courtesy of @W0PV ;) )​

    In short, they can't. The only way the digital users can reliably spot/hear a voice user is if there is only one digital user transmitting at a time.

    These aren't our frequencies. We're borrowing them from authorized government users who have primary access rights to them.
     
    AE7LP, N3AB and (deleted member) like this.
  6. AA5CT

    AA5CT Ham Member QRZ Page

    re: "In short, they can't."

    No more so than a of couple Voice operators (ONE of whom may be out-of-range of the interrupting user) or CW operators ...

    (BTW, citing a "time-compressed" waterfall kinda paints a "prosecutor's case" against digital/FT8. A "prosecutor's case" is a one-side presentation of the known "facts".)

    AND that brings up a question. I've noticed what appears, may be, don't know for sure: code-practice sessions taking place on one of the channels?

    How is a station involved with a longish code-practice segment able to 'listen' for "an NTIA-authorized voice user"?

    FT8 frames being about 14 some secs long followed by a receive period seems to avail itself of PLENTY of opportunities to 'stand down' at the request of a "an NTIA-authorized voice user".

    I listen to FT8 while operating, do others? That might be a point that's being over-looked right there.
     
    WU8Y likes this.
  7. KP4SX

    KP4SX XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    The same way they would have done with the digital signal that was specifically allowed in 2012?
     
  8. KK5JY

    KK5JY Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    The problem is that it's not for you to say. The reasoning I explained (again, as quoted by me and others earlier in the thread) was put forward by NTIA, and codified by FCC. There isn't a debate here, FCC decided, and that's the rule.
    Again, that's not your call. And did you see the picture above?

    If you don't like the rule, petition FCC to change it.
    And that digital mode is also restricted to one transmission per channel at any given time. It's not the stacked waterfall of stuff shown above.

    Obviously the FT8 behavior on 5357 is going to continue indefinitely, with no enforcement against it. So why are you guys so bothered to find out that you are breaking the rules? ;)
     
    N3AB likes this.
  9. AA5CT

    AA5CT Ham Member QRZ Page

    re: "These aren't our frequencies. We're borrowing them from authorized government users who have primary access rights to them."

    Ahem.

    I've looked at the authorizations down there, they are not all "authorized government users" in the 5 MHz area. There are commercial licensees as well.
     
  10. KK5JY

    KK5JY Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Fair enough. Primary is primary. We are secondary. When the primary users ask for the channel, they get it. That's the rule.

    NTIA is the one who asked for single-user centered operation for digimodes. They actually didn't want any digimode operation at all. FCC gave them single-user centered operation, and that's the rule.

    You guys keep arguing about the "reasonability" of the rule, which is irrelevant here. The rule says what it says. Even ARRL has said that in multiple news releases.
     
    WU8Y likes this.

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