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NEW YORK HAM TICKETED- Part II

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by Guest, Jun 11, 2003.

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  1. AC0BE

    AC0BE Ham Member QRZ Page

    I think it is natural to jump to conclusions on this but we really don't know what the judge has on his mind. He is not going to increase his court workload for something trivial he can dismiss.

    Soooo.... this may be something he wants to get some case law set on. That is to say, he can't always tell you what is going on but it may be for the good. Do get a lawyer- if the judge tells you to get one, get one!

    I'm curious, did you talk to the DA's office about this? Usually you can find out where you are by what they say or are willing to bargain for.

    Also, if you haven't seen the ARRL-Walter Cronkite ad, you can only hope the judge has and remembers that when Tower II went down on 9/11, the main NYPD repeater system went down with it and guess who filled in the gap? You got it- HAMs and I would imagine, HAMs with those naughty little radios in their cars helped, too!!!

    73, Steve KC0OZU
     
  2. KC0EFS

    KC0EFS Ham Member QRZ Page

    Take this thing to trial.Let a jury hear the story. Make them prove all the charges. Don't take "an off the wall" plea bargan. It's either all or nothing.
    You either violated the law to the letter or you are totaly innocent. No backing out now.
    Thing need to change and you might just be the one to do it.
    ALL the best of luck.
     
  3. WQ7J

    WQ7J Ham Member QRZ Page

    After seeing all the various posts on this thread, one thing is clear...now is the time to retain an attorney and get this whole matter over with.  With an attorney you have a very good chance of getting yourself cleared of the charge and establishing a precident that will prevent other like-minded municipalities from deciding to pursue similar acts against their hams.
    What really galls me is this is happening in the same state where in the aftermath of 9-11 we hams came to the aid of these same entities. [​IMG]
    Good luck to you Richard.
     
  4. KC8TAP

    KC8TAP Ham Member QRZ Page

    People please remember the police make decisions based on what they see at that instant. Yes they do make mistakes. No single person knows everything about everything. The court system is in place to protect all of us, and yes sometimes we disagree with them. Please dont jump to conclusions before the outcome of the case. Richard, please go to court with the advise of counsil and good luck. I hope this fight is a short one, but remember sometimes the best way to win is bankrupt the other party.   73's   kc8tap
     
  5. W6TH

    W6TH Guest

    Although I have never trusted a lawyer carrying a suitcase, please by all means hire a lawer.

               And good luck in a New York court of law.
     
  6. wc4rav

    wc4rav Guest

    I disagree with most everyone on the board.
    Don't hire an attorney, save your money ,I say thsi because the penlty for violation of this law would equal what ever you pay an attorney to take up your case. which unless the attorney specilizes in amateur radio and scanners as they pertain to NY law he can't do any thing for you that you can't do for your self.. first thing put the case off for as long as possible talk with the DA/solicter, about dismissing the charge if unsucessful at the very last moment request a jury trial. people forget things over time during trial ask the trooper to descibe the radio in question in detail. ask the trooper what are the radios recieve ranges then ask the trooper questions from the Tech question pool progrss to your current license class question pool,, if the trooper fails the questions ...
    you will have disqualified them as a credible witness. point out that you are and FCC licensed amateur point out that your equipment is FCC type certified most importantly point out that you recieved no other citiaions.. question --what traing do NY troopers go thru to train them to spot outlaw radios question if this trooper recived such training..

    You won't need a lawyer ,, this case is small potatoes./ if you are willing to keep going to court on this .they will realize that there is no money to be made on the case...
     
  7. WA9SVD

    WA9SVD Ham Member QRZ Page

    I think there's a corrollary to Murphy's Law that states "Never trust a poor lawyer, or a rich used car salesman..."

    OK, You DO need to hire an attorney. It may be that the judge wanted time to review the pertinent law, get opinions from colleagues, etc. because he, the court reporter, or someone else in the system knew this might be a problem case, and (righlty so) judges do NOT like to have their decisions overturned!

    That said too, the law, although vague, DOES seem to differentiate between receive only radios ("SCANNERS and the like") and transceivers, that can transmit on Amateur bands, and also have a receiver that can receive outside of the Amateur bands. The law IS too vague; it could be interpreted to mean that although your radio CAN receive outside the Amateur bands, it can't be used to do so. So receiving NWS on 156.22 or other frequencies might be considered an illegal act.
    Admittedly, the Federal Law should overrule any local laws, and the local laws (especially the NY law) should be worded to comply and agree with the Federal Law. THAT would prevent any confusion. But then again, we are talking about government here. I won't hold my breath on that occuring any time soon.
     
  8. AI8W

    AI8W Ham Member QRZ Page

    I know this is probably a day late and a dollar short, but let me share with you a few experiences I've had on the road.

    I'm an OTR truck driver, and I've had similar problems in the past in both Indiana and Minnesota. The only thing that saved my butt from having my radios confiscated and getting ticketed was my "HAM Radio Book". I have a three-ring binder, complete with page protectors and labels, with every state's "scanner law" that I could find. I currently only have the laws for MI, IN, MN, and WI. I'd like to find the applicable statutes for all 48 contiguous states, but I haven't been able to track down all the laws.

    At any rate, back to the stories... I was pulled behind the scales on I-94 in Indiana, just east of Lake Station. The State Trooper there had only one reason to pull me around... "All those damned goofy antennas on your truck must mean you have a scanner. I want your radios. All of them. The CB too." Before I disconnected a single wire, I pulled my HAM book out, and showed him the printout of the IN State law, complete with the "law number" (Or whatever it's called. Damnit, Jim, I'm a Truck Driver, not a Lawyer!). I asked him to compare my printout with the statute copies he had in the scalehouse. Luckily for me, he was willing to do so. He asked me for a copy of my license, and I showed it to him (I was then KR8LR). After an hour and a half delay in my route, he let me go without a ticket. Still doesn't make up for the (around) $150 I lost in time (I could have been running during that hour and a half, but at least I didn't have to go to court in a state I don't live in to get my $2000 worth of radio gear back. I should explain that I'm an owner-operator, and we make more than "company drivers" who don't own their equipment, because we have to pay for said equipment)

    The other incident occurred in a truck stop in Minnesota. A "county mounty" with a chip on his shoulder asked to see my scanner after I came out of the truckstop. I opened the door, opened the book, showed him the law for MN (the exemption in the MN statute for HAMs is in the first paragraph) and my HAM license (then AI8W.. this was just last month). He hassled me for nearly an hour, but was eventually convinced that it was all legit.

    Ignorance of the Law is No Excuse, unless of course you're a cop, it seems.

    If ANYONE knows the statute numbers for the states you live in regarding that state's "scanner law", PLEASE email me. I plan on posting links to each state's applicable legislation on my qsl.net website so that others in my situation might have easier access to the laws for printing them out. It's taken me almost a year of digging thru legislation to find the laws for the few states that I have..

    73 de AI8W, Chris
     
  9. N9LYA

    N9LYA Ham Member QRZ Page

    You need to obtain help from an ARRL Affiliated Volunteer Council.. They know the law as well as Amateur Radio Law.. Any other lawyer (esepcially one that knows squat about Radio Law, may not know what to do as well and leave you dissatisfied or worse..

    Go to the ARRL Website and find the information about one near you... Or call them.

    73 Jerry N9LYA
     
  10. K7LRB

    K7LRB Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Were we ever told what you were originally stopped for? Whatever happened to that charge (or those charges)?
     
  11. AG4RQ

    AG4RQ Ham Member QRZ Page

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AI8W @ June 14 2003,04<!--emo&[​IMG])</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If ANYONE knows the statute numbers for the states you live in regarding that state's "scanner law", PLEASE email me. I plan on posting links to each state's applicable legislation on my qsl.net website so that others in my situation might have easier access to the laws for printing them out. It's taken me almost a year of digging thru legislation to find the laws for the few states that I have..

    73 de AI8W, Chris[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Here is a copy'n'paste of the Florida Scanner Law from a page that I downloaded from the Internet. I don't have the URL:

    Original source: Florida Statutes online (2002)
    Title XLVI - CRIMES
    Chapter 843 - Obstructing Justice


    843.16  Unlawful to install radio equipment  using  assigned  frequency
           of State or law enforcement officers; definitions;  exceptions;
           penalties.--

    (1)  No person, firm, or corporation shall install in any motor vehicle
        or business establishment, except an emergency  vehicle  or  crime
        watch  vehicle  as  herein  defined  or  a  place  established  by
        municipal, county, state, or federal  authority  for  governmental
        purposes, any frequency modulation radio  receiving  equipment  so
        adjusted or tuned as to receive messages or signals on frequencies
        assigned by the Federal Communications Commission to police or law
        enforcement officers of any city or county of the state or to  the
        state or any of its agencies.  Provided, nothing herein  shall  be
        construed to affect any radio  station  licensed  by  the  Federal
        Communications System or to affect  any  recognized  newspaper  or
        news publication engaged in covering the news on a full-time basis
        or any alarm system contractor certified pursuant to  Part  II  of
        Chapter 489, Operating a Central Monitoring System.

    (2)  As used in this section, the term:

        (a)  "Emergency vehicle" shall specifically mean:

             1.  Any motor vehicle used by any law enforcement officer  or
             employee of any city, any  county,  the  state,  the  Federal
             Bureau of Investigation, or the Armed Forces  of  the  United
             States while on official business;

             2.  Any fire department vehicle of any city or county of  the
             state or any state fire department vehicle;

             3.  Any motor vehicle designated as an emergency  vehicle  by
             the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles when said
             vehicle is to be assigned the use of frequencies assigned  to
             the state;

             4.  Any motor vehicle designated as an emergency  vehicle  by
             the Sheriff of any county in the state when said  vehicle  is
             to be assigned the use of frequencies assigned  to  the  said
             county;

             5.  Any motor vehicle designated as an emergency  vehicle  by
             the Chief of Police of  any  city  in  the  state  when  said
             vehicle is to be assigned the use of frequencies assigned  to
             the said city.

        (b)  "Crime watch vehicle" means any motor  vehicle  used  by  any
             person participating in a citizen crime watch or neighborhood
             watch program when such  program  and  use  are  approved  in
             writing by the appropriate Sheriff or Chief of  Police  where
             the vehicle will be used and the vehicle is assigned the  use
             of frequencies assigned to the county or city. Such  approval
             shall be renewed annually.

    (3)  This section shall not apply to any  holder  of  a  valid  amateur
        radio  operator  or  station  license  issued   by   the   Federal
        Communications Commission or to any recognized newspaper  or  news
        publication engaged in covering the news on a full-time  basis  or
        any alarm system contractor  certified  pursuant  to  Part  II  of
        Chapter 489, Operating a Central Monitoring System.


    (4)  Any person, firm, or corporation violating any of  the  provisions
        of this section shall be deemed guilty of  a  misdemeanor  of  the
        second degree, punishable as provided in § 775.082  or  § 775.083.

    History.--§§ 1-4, ch. 26886, 1951; §§ 24, 35, ch. 69-106;  § 1049,  ch.
    71-136; § 1, ch. 86-55; § 1, ch. 90-62.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Retranscribed by: Todd L. Sherman/KB4MHH
    Last updated: December 16, 2002.

    Mobile Scanner & RADAR-Detector Laws In The U.S.
    Todd L. Sherman/KB4MHH, Owner/Webmaster
    Gainesville, Alachua Co., Fla.
    E-mail: afn09444@afn.org
    Copyright © 1995-2003 by Todd L. Sherman. All Rights Reserved.
     
  12. AG4RQ

    AG4RQ Ham Member QRZ Page

    As can be seen in the Florida Scanner Law, there are other exemptions besides amateur radio. If you work for the media or an alarm company and have a scanner in your vehicle, you run the same risk as a ham does. That is why an example needs to be made of this trooper in upstate New York so that there aren't any more victims like Rich. LEOs need to be compelled to ask questions of a stopped motorist to find out if he/she falls into one of the "exempt" categories before writing a ticket, and then asking the motorist for proof of his/her exemption (eg.: an amateur radio license, media ID or alarm company ID). What I see in Rich's case is abuse of authority, and is no different than a false arrest. If this case goes Federal, LEOs all throughout the country may finally be compelled to finally determine that the scanner law was indeed violated before overzealously issuing a ticket.
     
  13. AI8W

    AI8W Ham Member QRZ Page

    I just got done tracking down all the laws that I could find on the web today, regarding Amateur Radio and scanner laws. I've updated my website at http://www.qsl.net/ai8w with links to the applicable laws.. There are, I'm sure, some that I've missed, and some that I couldn't find links for, but found information that such laws exist. If anyone can fill in the holes there, please drop me an email, and when I get home next time, I'll be sure to check out and add the links.

    73 de AI8W, Chris
     
  14. KD7WHQ

    KD7WHQ QRZ Member QRZ Page

    In the interest in assisting, I just did a comprehensive search though the Revised Code of Washington State.
    Apparently, we don't have such a statute here.

    73
     
  15. KB3GUT

    KB3GUT QRZ Member

    Chris,

    Don't reinvent the wheel. Tod Sherman, KB4MHH has an excellent site at http://www.afn.org/~afn09444/scanlaws/ that does all you are trying to do and more. Todd has spent years gathering this information, and regularly takes a new look at state laws to be sure they have not changed.

    I wish a lot more of the people that have posted here had read Tom's site before they posted.

    In addition, the ARRL (admittedly 20-years old) has a position and a good legal discussion at http://www.arrl.org/announce/regulatory/pr91-36/pr91-36.html which supplies good information you should read.

    KB3GUT, George
     
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