Need advice from Hams on a Mini Quad that will be sold commercially (Soon)

Discussion in 'Antennas, Feedlines, Towers & Rotors' started by NN2X, Jul 2, 2021.

ad: L-HROutlet
ad: l-rl
ad: L-Geochron
ad: Left-3
ad: MessiPaoloni-1
ad: abrind-2
ad: Left-2
ad: HRDLLC-2
ad: L-MFJ
  1. NN2X

    NN2X Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Hi Fellow Hams!

    I have been working on a design, called Mini Quad, and had a few antenna modelers confirm the design. This antenna can compete with Hex Beam (5 Band 20-10 and 6 if need be). The design is highly unique and I will patented the design.

    At the end of the day, the new antenna is about 1dB more forward gain than the Hex Beam and weighs about 5 to 7 Lb. The gain is is better over the entire band, and has better F/B (The cost will be less)

    The idea is to have a much lighter mast (As the antenna is so much lighter). I purchased the Spider Beam Aluminum mast (41FT) and the Tripod...and this can easily support the Mini Quad.

    My commercial questioned (I will be selling these antennas in a few months)

    Shall, I design the antenna to be light (5Lb to 7lb) or increase the robustness to support rougher weather conditions? However , this will increase the weight to 10Lbps or even 12Lb, but I am afraid I can use lighter mast once I reach 10LB to 12LB....

    I look forward to my esteem Ham colleagues!

    Tom / NN2X
     
    N3AWS likes this.
  2. MRCONGENIALITY

    MRCONGENIALITY QRZ Member

    very cool stuff

    what kind of wind load does it have? some have very little while others are like a sail in the wind.
     
  3. WB2WIK

    WB2WIK Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    I'd like to see a photograph of it (to remain non-proprietary and keep the design patentable).

    However, I'm not sure I'd bother with a patent, as the application is complex (done this several times) and the examiner will nearly always have questions that may not be asked for more than a year after filing, so the whole process can easily take 2-3 years.

    "Our" hope in filing patent apps was always that some big company would come along and want to buy the rights, which can create income; but that often doesn't happen so the expense is just lost.:(

    Still, I'd love to see at least a photo of the completed antenna. To make an outdoor antenna survivable in rough climates it certainly needs to be strong. And "wind loading" for an iced antenna can be 10x what it is when dry.
     
    K0UO likes this.
  4. NN2X

    NN2X Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Thanks for the reply...The patent is really never any protection to be honest, but the Engineers that designed it, will have something to put on their resume!

    This is nothing more than to serve the Ham community (And my son who is 14 Years old (Ham / KI5FJE), to give him some work! It will be his company as well...!

    The Mini Quad uses a highly complex capacitance design, and coils to make work. It is not easy design, but very simplistic look, and mechanically very sound.

    About the wind loading and ice concerns, this is still problematic, as it is still a Quad! (Although Mini), which is 50% less in size. Even if the design can support the ice, and wind the reputation of a Quad, will over shadow the reality of the design

    As you know, the Quad has about 2dB more gain than a Yagi (Especially when only 2 elements), no less a compromised 2 Element Yagi (Like Hex Beam). This design gave up some gain (Due to shrinking the size) but still had more gain than the Hex Beam. Plus the gain is maintain over the entire bandwidth, and FB...But the real advantage is the weight, and size...That is the key, when you get an antenna weighing only 5LB to 7LB, that should be easy to handle..My first thought was if it was windy, just take it down, however, you need a real light mast (Not like Rohn) that is still to heavy), but a fiber mast, with easy guying to disconnect, might be the ticket, Rather than making more robust antenna, make the antenna very light, and the mast so it is so easy to take down...The mast we are trying to target is 40FT (Fiber) but the mast that supports 5lb to 7LB can not support 25lb..(Like the Hex Beam).

    It is surely fun to design this!

    NN2X Tom
     
  5. WB2WIK

    WB2WIK Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    Have you read the empirical studies, "Quads vs. Yagis" and "Quads vs. Yagis, Revisited" by Dr. Wayne Overbeck (K6YNB, now N6NB) which were published in Ham Radio magazine back in the 1970s?

    If not, give them a look...they are on line. Wayne went to great lengths with this study, which was all empirical and not based on modeling.

    Interesting results.
     
    K0UO and K2XT like this.
  6. NN2X

    NN2X Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    I was an consultant for Lightning Bolt (HF Quad Antenna), and I put up two towers at 65ft on my property in PA. I had the trusty spectrum analyzer (HP 8566) and did comparisons! For over 3 months...I had 42 FT boom supporting 6 Elements for 20/17 and 15, and 11 elements for 12/ 10...But also had smaller booms at 24ft.(Quad and Yagis). I had compared Yagis (Both mono bander and multiband Yagis) and Quads...The key was, even with mono bander (Yagi), and comparing the multibander Quad, the Quad always won (Forward gain, and RX gain, FB, and BW).. ...These Yagis was not home made if you will, they were commercial made yagis (HyGain), Cushcraft, and other one...But it was one heck of an expensive exercise!

    So, I had to put this to bed...(Quad versus Yagi). The one feature that the Quad had, it was so much quieter, and yes it open DX early and closed earlier, However, not due to the the lower angel of radiation, which is sort of a myth, as it is so slight lower than Yagi, but since it has better (G/T (The Quad)) that it is able to hear better both short skip and long skip...But as far as transmit gain, no contest, always won, but now we are speaking of 2dB at best, however if we were comparing multiband yagi to multiband quad, you would truly see more than a S Unit difference on certain bands..

    Now with antenna modeling, it puts the guess work out of the equation...It look like for 2 elements, HF band at least, there is 2dB more gain (Quad over Yagi), but as the boom goes on, the gain is less..In any case, I needed the 2dB to (Loose) when I shrunk the Quad antenna, as I was competing with the Hex Beam...So all good..

    However, when you really try to compare all the variables, and go through the iterations, one has to be real careful, on truly comparing apples to apples...

    All I can say, all very fun..

    De NN2X Tom Wright
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2021
    K7MH and MRCONGENIALITY like this.
  7. K8DO

    K8DO Ham Member QRZ Page

    The market for a product like this is a teeny tiny percent of the ham population and an invisible percent of the general population. Good luck my friend.
     
  8. K2XT

    K2XT Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Disagree.
    The only antennas the 2 element quad has 2 db gain over is a dipole or a vertical.
    If your model indicates differently your model has an error in it.
    Ham radio has more myths than can be counted, and antennas are the worst.
    Hams loooooove to believe the myths about quads that you mentioned, and that loops are quiet (although no one can explain why they would be and no reputable antenna book ever mentions it), that bazookas have wide bandwidth (they don't). Sorry.
    The Wayne Overbeck side-by-side tests that WB2WIK referenced of a two element trap yagi compared to many different quads and big yagis showed in every single instance that the quad was an inferior performer.
     
    KA0HCP likes this.
  9. NN2X

    NN2X Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    I took 3 months working with Lightning Bolt as a consultant, and we did intense testing with two towers up at 65FT, (On my property) Yes indeed there is more gain (Quad) (Forward) than Yagi...It was one expensive exercise...I had Spec An (HP 8566) to plot the results...It was very expensive exercise (I repeat!)

    I purchased Hygain Mono Banders, along with Cushcraft, (Multiband), Quad was simply better... I used 24 FT Boom, (Mono Bander) and 24 FT (Aprx) Multband Yagis, and compared with 24 FT boom Multiband Quad)

    The issue is with the Quad, if you don't tune correctly you will not get the maximum bang for your buc..It took a little on shorting stub...

    And by the way, I even compared Cubix with Lightning Bolt, (Both Quads), and yes, feeding separately yielded better results

    I had no skin in the game, All I wanted was the best antenna money could buy (I had money back then!), and ended up with a 42 FT boom HF Quad, supporting 6 Elements on 20, 17. 15 and 11 elements on 12/10..., If the Yagi was better under my testing I would had purchased the yagi

    No offense to Wayne Overback, I just worked with Quad manufactures, and Yagi and did a three months comparison, I know the results... There is no debate...
    And the software confirms, (However, only 2dB more gain for the 2 elements it gets diminishing as the boom length increases), and this is comparing apples to apples (For not only Forward gain, FB, VSWR)

    DE NN2X Tom
     
    K0UO and PU2OZT like this.
  10. NN2X

    NN2X Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    You are probably right! I am not making a living on this! I just saw the Hex Beam being sold, and spoke with LEO, (K4KIO), I have the numbers...There seems to be a go to system, especially starting off in Ham radio, which is ICOM 7300 and a Hex Beam! The Hex Beam is 25Lbs, and my design is about 5 to 7LB, yielding slight more gain, than the Hex

    But this is not something you retire on...This is a cottage industry, and if I sell one a month, so be it..Or even one a year...I know it will take care of my own needs, which is light mast up at 40ft...(Not Rohn, but fiber mast, and this can be support 7Lb antenna, not 25lb..)

    This is for fun! Not making any money (And further my son, will learn a little about how a company works/ His calls are KI5FJE)...

    If I can help another Ham that is boxed in a situation, and desires to use a light mast, to raise up to 40FT, and can't with a Hex beam, but can with my solution so be it (My antenna is 5 to 7Lb).

    Cheers

    NN2X Tom
     
    N3AWS, AK5B and PU2OZT like this.

Share This Page