Loop On Ground Antenna

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by KD5W, Jul 18, 2021.

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  1. W1YW

    W1YW XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    Physics first--then cost.

    I disagree: this is a poor antenna (when viewed electromagnetically) and as such should not be considered. An antenna resting above a mediocre ground has a substantial transmission line effect, which means it phase cancels substantially in the far field.

    Simply stated, your loop, on the (mediocre) ground, excites an out of phase RF current (from the ground) and the two add up to close to zero.

    It hears very little as a result.

    I have seen the many claims of 'buried' (or resting) antennas thru the years. On the rare occison that they work, it is a function of the ground characteristics and conductivity, not resting on the ground as placement. IOW, on some grounds it may work in a mediocre fashion, on others it will work poorly.

    Now there are interesting studies showing if you rest an antenna on a glacier (ice) it works. Sure, somewhat: pure ice is a dielectric and not (per se) 'ground conductive'.

    A wire running across the room--and off the floor-- likely has better performance and would be cheaper than a loop on grass.

    Chip W1YW
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  2. W9RAC

    W9RAC Ham Member QRZ Page

    I have worked quite a few dipoles, loops, and more that have been located low with poor results on their receiving end. Also same goes for attic antennas I have conversed with. Now if the situation only provides for this Id take it over nothing. 73 Rich
    M1WML, W5CJA and K0UO like this.
  3. WN1MB

    WN1MB Ham Member QRZ Page

    ...yet be in much closer proximity to a plethora of modern day noise generators.
  4. K0UO

    K0UO Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    The problem is they don't have anything to compare to. So it is kinda like people that think their 40 meter mobile antenna is working great, then they put a real antenna on it and signals are up 3 S units, wow 18DB of loss on the first antenna. HI
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  5. KD5W

    KD5W XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    We're not. I'm having fun and experimenting while documenting for others to see. Now does anyone know how to connect spaghetti noodles together haha
    KE6MAK, M1WML and WN1MB like this.
  6. W1YW

    W1YW XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    Experimenting is good stuff. The problem is when something doesn't work, it begs for the curiousity to understand further. These days, there are more than ample resources to find this sort of info out: use failure as an incentive to learn--MO:)

    Chip W1YW
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  7. W5CJA

    W5CJA XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    Same here and agreed. If this is what I'm constrained to, I'll take it over nothing. I've had mobile hamsticks on a balcony railing, horizontal loops in attics, 2m verticals on cookie sheets in the garage...anything to get on the air and if a LOG is all I have...so be it.
    M1WML, WN1MB and W9RAC like this.
  8. KC7JNJ

    KC7JNJ Ham Member QRZ Page

    He did say he was talking about folks in a HOA. (He defined his demographic for this video at the beginning ) You folks who have property and resources to put up the perfect antenna I say good for you. But you are not the folks this video was made for. There many hams who are doing all they can to be on the air in some way. Some guys just dont have a clue what it is like to be on land that is antenna confined.
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  9. W1YW

    W1YW XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    I think most of us have a very good experience and or recollection of such restrictions. For example, getting OTA from a dorm room, among others. Or an apartment on the 27th floor (which thus motivated the invention of fractal antennas).

    Antennas on the ground are possibly the worst of all the compromised options that can be explored in an HOA. Sorry to say, but it really is not factual to believe otherwise, because of the physics of the transmission line phase cancellation..

    Chip W1YW
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  10. KC7JNJ

    KC7JNJ Ham Member QRZ Page

    Ya I get it... But when you are under such restrictions you experiment. You look for all sorts of ways to get on the air. You end up learning somethings dont work and something do.
  11. W1YW

    W1YW XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    ...which is what I said. See post #21.

    But you can't stop there.

    What I am saying is if you honor your own curiousity, you will continue to use failure to LEARN what's been done before, not try to invent the wheel as a square--each time:) Then your experimenting will take interesting and valuable new turns as you forge ahead.

    Chip W1YW
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  12. UT7UX

    UT7UX Ham Member QRZ Page

    Especially with chile sauce!

    However in my part of the world hams mostly rely on curtain rods made of a metal-like material. :D
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  13. UT7UX

    UT7UX Ham Member QRZ Page

    Nope. Everyone knows electronics works on magic smoke. When the smoke comes out of an apparatus it dies. Smoky rosin is essentially required to reanimate the apparatus. No any physics here. :rolleyes:
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  14. W1YW

    W1YW XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    Ham radio was, and is, a technical enterprise. It should NEVER be our defense to do things that are known to be contrary to the established physics. That doesn't mean frontiers of the physics aren't game. But putting an antenna on grass and defending the action --when the explanation for the poor performance is profferred--should never ever be acceptable to a service that is defined to 'enhance the radio art'.

    Again to wit:

    "Antennas on the ground are possibly the worst of all the compromised options that can be explored in an HOA. Sorry to say, but it really is not factual to believe otherwise, because of the physics of the transmission line phase cancellation."

    In other words, we agree:)

    Chip W1YW
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  15. KK9W

    KK9W Ham Member QRZ Page

    My LoG is often the difference between a contact and no contact or just a more pleasurable listening experience by knocking out noise. You can't work them if you can't hear them and sometimes the 80M OCF isn't the winner between the two. That makes the LoG a useful tool due to its characteristics. No claims from me that it's a star performer of all things wire and space but sometimes it's what works better in that instance and that's all I need it for.
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