Discussion in 'Logbook User Forum' started by KD8GNC, Aug 5, 2010.
That would imply you seem to know the difference between paying and non-paying functionality.
No KG6MZS that does NOT imply that I know the difference between paying and non-paying functionality. What it DOES imply is that I have attempted to RESEARCH the difference between paying and non-paying functionality. The statement "However,by design the non-paying members have very little functionality",was made by me after reading a post by Fred-AA7BQ in another thread. That post was deleted by Fred yesterday along with many others as he explained here http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?t=260279 Since Fred is the sole programmer of the logbook,and the founder of QRZ,I assumed that was a good enough source. Now,I admit that the idea of 'very little' 'little' 'less' or whatever may be a subject for debate,but the simple fact remains that the non-paying member has less by design according to the programmer. How much less is a mystery,since the only source for instruction,FAQ,or help is this forum. So far I have read rumor that a non-member cannot upload an ADIF and must hand enter each contact,along with many more rumors. At this time I have not found a definitive source for paying/non-paying functionality differences. Perhaps you can enlighten us all on your knowledge of the matter,rather than offering OPINIONS of other posters here in the Logbook SUPPORT forum.
I would be mildly curious to know what the differences are between paying and non-paying functionality are but I can tell you that, as a paying subscriber, I doubt there is any practical difference. "Automagic" confirmation criteria is apparently too onerous for most QSOs to automatically confirm like in LoTW - too many ways not to match. Any difference in the subsequent confirmation process is too much work in my opinion given the number of QSOs I upload. I wouldn't find it enjoyable to tediously compare dozens of fields in hundreds of QSOs trying to determine which are in error and causing the automatic confirmation to be rejected.
I don't know if it makes you feel better but paying doesn't buy me anything usable as far as the online logbook goes, AFAICT. But that isn't why I sent QRZ.com some money anyway, so I don't care.
I'm sure the confirmation criteria will eventually be made known and the whole endeavor will be improved and refined.
73 de Eric, KG6MZS
KG6MZS- No,it doesn't make me feel better that you can't really tell if paying gets you anything extra with the logbook or not,, It is your money and your business what you get from QRZ for it and if you are happy,then I am happy for you,, I do not pay at this time,but if the time comes that I need or want more from the site,then I will do as you do and pay. If I start working portable,and QRP as I am thinking about doing sometime in the future,then I may see a real use for joining and being able to download the callsign database and such. At this time I just do not use the site that much.
I had no real interest in the logbook at all until I started seeing contacts waiting for me to confirm them. I always return a QSL card if I get one,and I was going to simply confirm the contacts here for the benefit of those who had uploaded theirs. That was when I found it was not as easy as I had thought. I opted out for the time being,maybe for good,until I can find out what it will take just to confirm for others. I don't want to tie up the thread with my experiences,but here are some questions we will all need answers to at some point.
How much time and how involved will be for paying users and non-paying users to work out the details on getting QSO's to matchup?
How much functionality will the non-paying user have to simply be able to confirm QSO's for the other folks seriously using the logbook?
How many entries will a non-paying user be able to see in their logbook,and how will this affect trying to confirm contacts for others?
Will a non-paying user be able to upload an ADIF file to just let as many QSO's confirm automatically as will? or will the non-paying user have to hand enter every contact?
Is it best for the non-paying user to simply opt-out so the other op will know not to expect confirmation?
And many more questions that I have not even run across yet.
Add to all this Fred is working hard to get the bugs out of the software. Someone is going to have to write some directions,some help notes,FAQ and other such things to really get the Logbook going. It is going to take some time for this to all shake out,so I just opted out for now,maybe for good. Maybe when folks upload they can see I am out and not expect confirmation.In any case,everyone is opted in,so everyone will have to be patient until this all works itself out. 73
I put a notice on my bio page on QRZ.com that I will only QSL via the logbook automatically - so the onus is on the QSLer to make sure that all the information matches in all the fields. That way all I do is upload an ADIF periodically - no great hardship. Problem solved, AFAIC.
I sent QRZ some money because the free features for page authoring are fantastic and the fast connection to Digital Master 780. I think the service is worth every penny. The logbook? Not so much. Yet.
Another country heard from.
73 de Eric, KG6MZS
Automagic? What gives you that impression? Confirmation is pretty self-explanatory. You record a QSO into the log. When the other party confirms it, then it's confirmed. There's nothing Automagic about that.
And, as for "confirmation criteria", confirmation occurs when the other party confirms.
The big difference that you may be missing is that QRZ logs are balanced, dual entry. As I've explained before, every log entry has an equal amount of information about each side of the QSO. Each log entry becomes a part of two logbooks, yours and the other station's.
Contrast that with LOTW in which two stations upload their logbooks and then wait for the robot to scan them both and come up with a set of matches, possibly confirming some of them in the process. This is a "single entry" system in which a log record belongs to just one of the two stations. In such a system, automatic confirmation becomes a complex process that involves, as you mentioned, the matching of a number of different data points along with a certain amount of fuzzy logic to account for typos and wall clock differences.
The QRZ Logs, on the other hand, are matched the moment they are entered. That's why all it takes is a nod from the other station to affect a confirmation.
One of the challenges that I have in the continuing development of the code is to accept incoming user log uploads and match them for correlation and duplicates with other QRZ logs. In this sense, we're converting single entry logs into dual entry logs. Right now we're not doing any correlation and dups will occur when log files are uploaded. We will be doing some of the same type of matching that LOTW does to close the loop and automate confirmations in the upload process.
It should be getting a lot easier. Until earlier this week there was a software bug that prevented confirmation by non-subscribers. That's fixed now and the confirmations are once again running smoothly.
It is meant to be a point-and-click operation that requires only a bare minimum of user interaction for the confirming station. The log originator may input as much or as little data as they wish and the system will supply as much as possible. Again, very little typing involved, unless desired.
Every QSO log matches up because the logs are Dual Entry.
The non-paying users will be able to confirm as many contacts that come into their account with no limits. They may also initiate new log entries without limitation.
We do need to place reasonable limits on the features that non-subscribers receive, both to entice them to subscribe, and, to provide those who do subscribe with value-for-money. Where we draw that line is the biggest issue. 99% of those who don't want to pay want the line removed entirely. I work hard for those who support the site, and less hard for those who don't. That's no different than any other person or business that works for a living.
Answered above. A non-paying user will always have access to 100% of the contacts from others that are awaiting their confirmation.
I actually have not thought about that one. My first reaction is no, because the reason for subscribing is convenience. Not having to hand enter contacts is convenient, by definition.
When a non-subscriber opts out, what this means is that the publicly viewable portion of their log will not show up on their callsign page. Their log still exists, and other stations can still log to it. We don't yet have an option that says "I'm a non-participant". We can not and should not prevent others from logging you, even if you've decided to opt out. We may, however, let the logging station know that you have chosen not to participate.
And the best way to make that happen is to get more people using it, finding out what it can do and what its limitations are. Their feedback goes back into the hopper and the cycle starts again. We're on the first turn of the crank at this point and there will be many more to come. While I'm disappointed that you've chosen to abstain, I'm still thankful that a great many others have placed their trust in QRZ and continue to contribute helpful interaction with the project.
On another note, the help files and FAQ's are being written now, by a volunteer who just came on board yesterday.
It seemed to me that a good number of the 9,000+ QSOs I uploaded were immediately confirmed so I assumed that if enough fields matched within certain tollerances to other uploads then an automatic confirmation resulted.
There was a thread entitled something like "Is QRZ Logbook too laborious" that seems to have been deleted that dealt with this.
I think checking the accuracy of hundreds of QSOs with as many fields as are present in the logbook is too onerous for a hobby IMO - too much like work
I'll need to see how this works out and rethink it.
73 de Eric, KG6MZS
Aggh, no. That is NOT all it takes from a conscientious operator. All fields must be checked for accuracy - that means laboriously comparing all fields manually. hundreds, even thousands of times. Given that QRZ.com's automatic look-up on at least a few fields systemically yields errors (CQ zone, grid square) and defaults like power also yield inaccurate information the whole process becomes waaaaaaaaaaaay to onerous for a conscientious operator, IMO.
Thanks for the reply, Fred. I know you are busy and I appreciate QRZ.com generally.
73 de Eric, KG6MZS
Yes there is
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