IRAQ pictures & U S Military

Discussion in 'Ham Radio Discussions' started by KD4AMG, May 7, 2004.

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  1. KD4AMG

    KD4AMG Ham Member QRZ Page

    By now you have seen the pictures from IRAQ, taken by the military of the "various positions", costumes, naked ness of the IRAQ prisoners . They are totally disgusting, and those IN FRONT and BEHIND the cameras should pay for the consequences.

    It appears that ; in some cases, the "high & mighty ARMED FORCES " members of the United States of America ( both male & female ) do NOT have very high standards.

    What should be their punishment ?

    Is it any wonder why the Iraq people are so mad at the military of the U S A , just for what is going on ?

    What are YOUR thoughts on this gross situation ?
     
  2. WA5KRP

    WA5KRP Ham Member QRZ Page

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ai4ep @ May 07 2004,16:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It appears that ; in some cases, the &quot;high &amp; mighty ARMED FORCES &quot; members of the United States of America ( both male &amp; female )  do NOT have very high standards.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    What segment of a given population doesn't have those characteristics? Clerics, cops, loan officers, U.S. Senators, Presidents, lawyers, teachers, amateurs.........who?

    Anybody can see this situation is being exploited for political gain, all the while further endangering American troops and citizens as well as our domestic and foreign interests. The VILLAGE IDIOT can figure out it shouldn't have happened - it's not the way decent Americans operate.

    But some jackass in the chain of command didn't have the guts to watch over their charges and we're now having to watch the phenomenon of &lt;bleep&gt; rolling up hill WAY PAST the point of responsibility. DOES ANYBODY SERIOUSLY BELIEVE THIS BEHAVIOR WAS DIRECTED BY THE PRESIDENT TO THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE ON DOWN? If anybody thinks yes, go look in the mirror and meet a &lt;bleeeeeeeeeeep&gt;. Some people are that foolish.

    I apologize for being aggressive and angry, but I hate to see American honor, blood, sweat, and tears swallowed up in a frenzy fired by mean spirited politics and mad dog journalism. The misdeeds of a few should not dishonor the sacrifices of the noble many. We're already seeing how the foreign press is using this cluster &lt;bleep&gt; to castigate the American people.

    You don't want to hear what I think should be done to those who are directly responsible.

    WA5KRP
    Texas
     
  3. KC9CFB

    KC9CFB Ham Member QRZ Page

    A few bad apples will spoil the bunch, as they say, at least for the duration of the war and perhaps a generation, and the fact that the media revels in focusing on the negative doesn’t help things one bit.

    Something has been bothering me about these events, or, rather, the discussion surrounding them. Although the actions of abovementioned soldiers and representatives of our country are in NO WAY excusable, and I am in NO WAY condoning what has occurred, I must stop and look at this as if it were from the opposite end. If the enemy were holding our men/women as prisoners of war and defamed and disgraced them, do you think Saddam would have even acknowledged the events, let alone apologized for the actions of those under his command? Although no amount of words will be able to fully restore these peoples’ dignity, it is assuredly better than one would expect if we were on the receiving end.

    Of course, I am only 15 years old and trying to keep an open mind, as difficult as that is with the media and its ironically biased views...I don't know if what I am saying truly stands to reason. [​IMG]
     
  4. W5HTW

    W5HTW Ham Member QRZ Page

    It is too early to make decided judgements on the 'why' of these incidents. We can only speculate. Poor training is probably, as noted, one of the reasons. I suspect, too, we put too much power in the hands of the very young, the 18 and 19 year old soldier, and his response was similar to the response we would get on the streets of our cities - violence in return for violence.

    We cannot fight a war without the very young adults. But we do need much closer supervision by far more experienced military. Clearly that did not happen.

    Of course, no-one sat in the White House or the Pentagon and sent orders down, &quot;Let's abuse prisoners.&quot; I doubt it originated at command levels in the field, either. What probably happened is some young soldiers found themselves in charge of someone who had been shooting at them or their buddies, and decided to get even.

    It is being blamed on military intelligence. I have little doubt intel operations would use certain techniques on prisoners to, as the phrase goes, 'soften them up,' but the idiocy of these incidents was in involving the military police guards and, of all things, taking photos and videos. That shows a complete lack of understanding.

    In one interview a young woman from the home town of one of the female guards pictured, said &quot;she was just following orders.&quot; That is not good enough. That was the excuse the Nazis used, and just about every other oppressive regime in history.

    I doubt it is true. I would venture that these young GIs were told to 'soften the prisoners up a bit,' and they took it upon themselves as to how to do that. And they enjoyed it, judging from the smiles and laughter in the photos.

    It is, though, true that in war atrocities have happened on all sides. It isn't right, and it is precisely why there IS a Geneva Convention. Unless times have changed far more than most of us older folks can even guess, the Geneva Convention IS explained to new GIs, and the stress is on human rights and proper prisoner treatment.

    It is not likely this activity began on the orders of local commanders. It began at lower levels, and got out of hand. It is much like the gang that starts beating someone with a stick and someone else picks up a bat. It escalates. It becomes a mob scene.

    I do not like the terms being used now in discussing this. We are being told some of the GIs involved are being 'reprimanded.' Reprimanded, hell! They should be currently in jail, pending an investigation, and if found guilty, should serve very hard and very long time. &quot;Reprimanded&quot; is not going to cut it in the eyes of the world, or Americans who served in the military responsibility. If these soldiers are found guilty (and as in the civilian world, should be arrested and held for trial/courts martial) they deserve the maximum available punishment, and I hope they get it.

    There is still some question as to whether a few of the photos and situations were staged. Even if they were, it would still be humiliating treatment for any human, and deserves criminal prosecution.

    This is, in my opinion, more of a black eye to America than the My Lai incident of Lt. Calley fame, in the Vietnam War. But like that incident did not go up the ladder to the President, neither does this one. It orginated in the field, and because its effects will shake the ladder, the higher powers must hand out effective, harsh, and rapid punishment for all those involved as well as those who turned away and let it happen.

    Ed
     
  5. G7HEU

    G7HEU Ham Member QRZ Page

    Agreed that &quot;Just following orders&quot; is a pathetic excuse.

    'Lack of training' - what, people need to be trained to NOT act like that?

    I solemly hope that the war criminals responsible will be suitably tried.

    Steve
    M0HEU / G7HEU.
     
  6. KA8NCR

    KA8NCR Ham Member QRZ Page

    Some of the tactics used on these prisoners just skirt the line of the Geneva Convention. But then when YOUR butt is in the crosshairs, that line might as well be 100 miles away and it is easy to see how the thirst for intelligence will cloud a person's judgement.

    Nevertheless, the US can no longer play the &quot;moral high ground&quot; card. Our standing is seriously diminished, and there may never be a recovery in the eyes of the Arab world.

    No one should worry about punishment; those responsible and probably a large number of people with one or two stripes on their sleeves will be having an extended stay in Kansas.

    Not a good day to be from the US. The only consolation is that what remains of our open society made it possible for the accounting and repercussions to start taking place.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    My view, as a soldier and an officer.

    This was a leadership failure, starting from about the first General Officer in the chain on down. It was not a training problem, you know when you leave basic how to treat prisoners and as MP's these soldiers knew it all to well.

    No, it was  a leadership failure, coupled with a few bad apples. From reading the limited background available on the two in the pictures, they were problems waiting to happen quite possibly. But thats where the leadership should have come into play and did not.

    We get our soldiers from society in general, and as such we get the with societies problems in tow at times. That where as leaders we step in and take care of issues. But take a handfull of bad apples (and sadly, as reservists it is sometimes harder for us to weed out the bad apples when you only see a person 38 days a year) and put them in a situation where there is a huge potential for abuse, and then throw in a crappy command climate and poor leadership, and you have an invitation for disaster.

    Rest assured what you see is definitly not indicative of what our troops do or how they behave (Despite what John Kerry may have said some years ago), and every other soldier out there, from myslef to the ones guarding these guys in the cell, would love to beat the crap out of them..... but we won't because thast not how we do things.

    That said, I pointed out today to a fiend what this really says about the USA. This is huge news and a huge scandal, because its the worst in us coming out. But our worst is still 100 times better than how things were there 2 years ago and in many, many countries around the world. Just something to ponder. Of the middle eastern nations who wish to be our critics on this issue, I will put our worst up against theirs any day and see who really is worse. There is no excuse for what happened, but that does put it in a bit of perspective.
     
  8. N0PU

    N0PU Guest

    When I first heard of this, I figured someone had blown a small thing way out of proportion...

    THEN I saw the pictures...

    Having been in the Military for over 12 years I cannot imagine something like this ever happening in any command I was ever connected with...

    There is something seriously wrong here... non-coms don't do this sort of thing on their own... The orders HAD to come from above... And junior Officers are usually so scared of everything and everybody that they wouldn't do this on their own... IMHO, this had to have come from the Major level and above...

    Some heads need to roll...
     
  9. K6PME

    K6PME Ham Member QRZ Page

    Not that I approve of what happened there, but I thought I would post a little different view just to keep things in perspective.

    From NEWSMAX:


    Largely forgotten in the hysterical media coverage of the Iraqi prison abuse scandal is this tidbit: the vast majority of the alleged abuses were committed against the most hardened terrorist suspects and known troublemakers, many of whom took part in prison uprisings that put the lives of U.S. military guards at risk.

    Section 34 of the now notorious Taguba Report begins: &quot;The following riots, escapes, and shootings have been documented and reported to this Investigation Team.&quot; Here's a few selected highlights:

    * June 9, 2003 - Riot and shootings of five detainees at Camp Cropper. (115th MP Battalion) Several detainees allegedly rioted after a detainee was subdued by MPs of the 115th MP Battalion after striking a guard in compound B of Camp Cropper.

    A 15-6 investigation by 1LT Magowan (115th MP Battalion, Platoon Leader) concluded that a detainee had acted up and hit an MP. After being subdued, one of the MPs took off his DCU top and flexed his muscles to the detainees, which further escalated the riot. The MPs were overwhelmed and the guards fired lethal rounds to protect the life of the compound MPs, whereby 5 detainees were wounded.

    * November 24, 2003 - Riot and shooting of 12 detainees . . . Several detainees allegedly began to riot at about 1300 in all of the compounds at the Ganci encampment. This resulted in the shooting deaths of 3 detainees, 9 wounded detainees, and 9 injured US Soldiers.

    A 15-6 investigation by COL Bruce Falcone (220th MP Brigade, Deputy Commander) concluded that the detainees rioted in protest of their living conditions, that the riot turned violent, the use of non-lethal force was ineffective, and, after the 320th MP Battalion CDR executed &quot;Golden Spike,” the emergency containment plan, the use of deadly force was authorized.

    * November 24, 2003 - Shooting of detainee at Abu Ghraib(320th MP Battalion). A detainee allegedly had a pistol in his cell and around 1830 an extraction team shot him with less than lethal and lethal rounds in the process of recovering the weapon.

    A 15-6 investigation by COL Bruce Falcone (220th Brigade, Deputy Commander) concluded that one of the detainees in tier 1A of the Hard Site had gotten a pistol and a couple of knives from an Iraqi Guard working in the encampment. Immediately upon receipt of this information, an ad-hoc extraction team consisting of MP and MI personnel conducted what they called a routine cell search, which resulted in the shooting of an MP and the detainee.

    * December 17 2003 - Shooting by non-lethal means of detainee from Abu Ghraib (320th MP Battalion). Several detainees allegedly assaulted an MP at 1459 inside the Ganci Encampment, Abu Ghraib (BCCF). An SIR was initiated by SSG Matash (320th MP BRIGADE, S-3 Section).

    The SIR indicated that three detainees assaulted an MP, which resulted in the use of a non-lethal shot that calmed the situation. [End of Excerpt]

    Another incident much ballyhooed in the press as a &quot;murder,&quot; looks a whole lot different in context of the Taguba Report, which says that on June 13, 2003:

    &quot;30-40 detainees rioted and pelted three interior MP guards with rocks. One guard was injured and the tower guards fired lethal rounds at the rioters injuring 7 and killing 1 detainee.&quot;

    No wonder our understaffed military police units in Iraq felt they had to resort to intimidation and humiliation tactics in a bid to keep this gang of violent criminals and bloodthirsty terrorists at bay.
     
  10. W4CGP

    W4CGP Ham Member QRZ Page

    The news media is making too big of a deal about it. So far, I've heard no apologies from these people for lynching people on bridges.

    Yes, it does look bad for us. It is stupid, however, for such a big deal to be made of it.
     
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