Incentive Licensing Retrospective

...and, sadly, even getting one of those "new" Extra Class licenses is not good enough in the eyes of some to make you a "Real Ham".

Sure sounds like a caste system to me.

73,

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF[/QUOTE]
Keith,

I hear this all of the time, yet I can't remember anyone stating that they are right because of their license class.

I think you are using the "caste system" routine to spin your point.

Give us some quotes, other then an opinion you don't like, from someone that happens to be an Extra Class.

If you beleive that the "JR. High Level" Extra Class tests are something that creates a "caste system", then I am amazed.

I sure wish it was that easy to reach your idea of greatness in the real world.

73 - W6NJ

 

Oh Keith,

Do you really think that what is required today is that hard?

I haven't had a "kick in the tail" from the FCC for 25 years. I passed, and got the license. Now, I just have to renew my license every ten years.

However, to continue to fly aircraft, I have the FAA give me a "kick in the tail" every two years. And that is for "private pilot "aka" hobby pilot", not ATP. If I don't perform up to spec, I don't get to fly anymore. What is so horrible about the current FCC regs? You think it is unreasonable the way it is?

I don't know how it could be easier other then paying people to be hams.

I should be  insulted that the FCC made Jack Gerritson take a test, but didn't give him all access to ham radio??? They expected Jack to prove his worth???

The fact is, that Jack only got a tech license before showing the world that he didn't deserve that license.

Your plan would have had Jack Gerretson with full HF access with the "have it all" license.  

Need I say more?

I won't speak for the FCC, but in my opinion, there are quite a few hams that are lazy, and they just may need a "kick in the tail". At least some help in setting microphone gain, so they don't splatter across the bands like CB'ers.

73 - W6NJ[/QUOTE]
That FAA “kick in the tail” every few years that you mention is for a very good and valid reason.

It’s called “safety”.

That FAA requirement is there specifically to make sure you don’t become a hazard to yourself or others with your aircraft.  I too, am a Private Pilot and, as I’m sure you well know, unlike your Ham Radio operator skills, airplane pilot skills very quickly get “stale” unless they are exercised regularly.  I think you’ll also agree that the consequences of screwing up at the controls of an airplane are potentially far more lethal to yourself and others than, for example, forgetting how to hook up your antenna to your transceiver.

Personally, I haven’t been at the controls of an airplane in over 30 years, so I’m certainly not about to jump back in and fly off into the “wild blue yonder” without someone in authority looking over my shoulder first.  

And, certainly, Jack Gerritsen’s on-air behavior warranted the FCC lifting his license.  However, if you take time to review the REST of Riley Hollingsworth’s list of scofflaws, I believe you may find that it is also heavily populated by some “Extra Class” operators as well.  

73,

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

 

So tune somewhere else than the "high end of 75m". I do.

 

Hmmm, wonder where you are.  In 30 years, I've never met one like that.  I've heard of one indirectly (he is in Atlanta), but most Extras I know are dedicated to the hobby and will help you in any way he/she can.

The only problem I've seen along that line is the transplant who squeaked by, been in the ARS for six weeks but won't stand for any advice and guidance because he (it's always a male) already knows it all.  This attitude is prevalent all over the place outside of ham radio, too, so it's not just limited to us.

A ham is a ham is a ham.  If you have a license you're a ham.  There is no such thing as "lite" licenses.  But if you're just coming into the hobby, you do not know it all!! I didn't, nobody else did. License class is irrelevant.

It's a two-way street, guys and gals! We old-timers need to be more helpful, whippersnappers need to be more receptive to that help!

 

"So tune somewhere else"--

Sure,--I can do that,--but does that "fix" the problem?
I equate this to like a barrel that has a few "bad apples",
one can "sort through" the barrel to find some good ones,
but the probem is, sooner or later these "bad' ones will
with time "migrate" and "invest" the whole barrel, if the
barrel is not fully "cleaned out", IMO

That`s what many of us who have been around for a
while are concerned about,--that ham radio should
be "cleaned out" and not just have "band-aid" fixes,
as the ARRL seems to be doing, to get the #`s up.

With  "minimal" enforcement by the FCC and the "plan"
to get more numbers, by the ARRL,--I/we just do not see that happening in the near future for the amateur service.
                          73, K1MVP

p.s, Bill,--KD4MXE, Happy New Year, and hope all
            is well with you too.
            Let me know when your e-mail is up and
            running, and will share some of my ideas
            on why I think the "high end" of 75 is a "mess".
                                 73, Rene, K1MVP

 

Albert and Keith,

In that we are all have Extra Class licenses, I don't get the point we are debating. There are techs that know more about electronics then a bunch of extras out there.

To say that somehow the different license classes created this division doesn't wash. The type of person you describe, would use their fancier radio as a way to feed their ego, if there was just one license class.

The ego-maniacs are a part of the world. Incentive licensing didn't create them, they already existed.

They are the same people that feel so special with their BMW as opposed to my funky Dodge Ram pickup.

Should we all be forced to drive VW beetles because of some arogant SOB that drives a BMW with his nose up.

Should we all wear uniforms approved by the state, so that no one is upset by people wearing nicer cloths?

Sorry, but you seem to be taking incentive licensing into the relm of social engineering.

As far as the tests, I don't see how you can say that lack of knowledge doesn't effect the splatter and distorted audio on the bands. Either the offending parties do it on purpose, which I doubt, or more likely they have no idea how the alc works, and how to set gain.

Either the basics are important, or they are not important. The fact is, that we have wide freedom to experiment and with that comes a responsibility to know what we are doing.

Whether or not Smith charts, reading schematics, or finding that value of 3 capacitors in series will ever be used, the point of the test is to show that this person has the desire to learn the basics. And that they will have the desire to learn the basics like setting up their transmitter correctly. It is about weeding out the folks that want to play, and don't want to take the time to operate a clean station.

That said, I think a large part of the problem today, is the acceptance of poor operating, and the dumbing down of tests, is just another statement that says it is ok to be a poor operator, and that we really have no standards at all.

The fact is, I would rather have two classes of license. Technician and Extra. With tests that require the knowledge to configure and operate a station properly, with a clean signal.

The real answer to the problem, is that the FCC needs to start sending out the pinks slips like they used to. If you splatter, you get a pink slip.

I'm not holding my breath on that one. And try telling someone on the air that they are wide, and see how fast they bite your head off. And God forbid, if they are not an Extra, because they can read here that you are just an arogant SOB Extra that wants to mess with them, and have yet another excuse to continue their foul signals.

We all know where this is going, and it is fun to debate, but the only thing that will really change any of this, is for the FCC to enforce the rules.

Pink slips will motivate more then any test I can think of. Wish it would start happening, because I am afraid that the bands will indeed turn into the land of echo mics and "Big 10-4's"

Time will tell.

73 - Bob

 

I agree.

It is like cancer, and it spreads. Folks listen to the poor behavior, and next thing you know, they are a convert and their behavior slides.

Then it all spirals down. It happened on CB, and without enforcement it is going to happen on the ham bands.

All of the debates here don't mean a thing, as the FCC has to enforce the rules.

What is the point of changing rules, that no one follows anyway?

73 - Bob

 

The band charts motivated me too. Back then, most of the SSB was better on the general portion, while the Extra SSB was fairly dead. The lower 25khz for CW was for the 30+wpm folks, and I rarely ventured into that scary land. It was really hard to get motivated, as Extra really didn't have much to offer me over Advanced.

The thing to remember about these debates, is that we get to arguing points that in reality, we agree on. That is just the nature of internet forums.

An issue that would take 15 minutes to resolve face to face, could take weeks using this method, and most times we give up long before that.

I sure hope no one gets too upset on these forums, because most of what you read can be taken many ways, and a lot of times, the writer didn't mean what the reader thinks the writer meant.

73 - Bob

 

Imo, most of the problems on the air, and they are hugely exaggerated here, are due to combining alcohol and ham radio. Too many people sit at home and drink and talk on the radio. On CW you can never tell, or at least I have no way to distinguish alcoholic CW versus just bad or confused CW. I can send bad CW without a single drink. On SSB it's pretty obvious who has had a little too much.

FCC Tests or whatever? I don't think this is such a big factor.

 

I've never really figured out what all of the hoopla has been about as regards incentive licensing.

AFAIK, life, in and of itself, is an incentive system.

Education is the best example.  HS -vs- Trade School -vs- Some College -vs- A College degree - vs- a Masters -vs- Ph.D and on and on.

There have always been under achievers, achievers and over achievers.

Ham radio is the only thing I know of where under-achievers look disdainfully at the over-achievers.

 

The big problem with your argument is that we ARE governed by the FCC rules and regulations here in the US. Just as is the FCC.

To cry and whine about the US Code is rather useless.

I sincerely doubt that you will get it rewritten.

Especially in light of the fact that we, as the amateur community, would have some choices to make about a rewrite.

We could foster mediocrity by having one license level with minimum requirements and no incentive to ever progress past that point. And face it, as you yourself have said, many hams are *NOT* electronic experts. Without an incentive, what would drive any of these hams to advance their electronics knowledge any further than that needed to pass the most basic of tests? Wasn't it you that said that most hams immediately forget everything they learn to pass the test?

Or we could have a license structure that encourages entry into the service and then provides gradual path for progressing in knowledge and expertise using incentives.

Or we could have a license structure with one license that requires the equivalancy of an EE degree to obtain.

It's pretty obvious to me that most sensible people would pick the middle choice.

We can argue all day long about what the incentives should be, but a multiple license structure with graduated knowledge levels required to advance makes the most sense.

Access to spectrum would seem to be the easiest and most objective incentive available.

Arguing that it creates a "caste" system is, as I said, wrong. A "caste" system implies an inabililty to progress. Amateur radio licensing is not this way.

Much of the complaining I see is nothing more than pure jealously that someone has been recognized for their knowledge by being awarded a "higher" license class.

I become very suspicious whenever I see someone saying we need to "tear the mountain down to make everyone level". Life just doesn't work that way. It is a very poor way of making everyone "equal". It just doesn't work. It is a phantom equality.

tim ab0wr

 

The big problem with your argument is that we ARE governed by the FCC rules and regulations here in the US. Just as is the FCC.

To cry and whine about the US Code is rather useless.

I sincerely doubt that you will get it rewritten.

[/QUOTE]
To the contrary, Tim…things ARE now "being re-written"…and right before our eyes!  

Dropping the number of license classes from five back to three was a start.  Now, the FCC is about to (gasp!) do away with the Morse testing requirement.  And, as we’ve discussed in another forum, they have also most likely whispered in the ARRL’s ear that they would very much like to get out of the regulated sub-band business as well.  

All of these shifts indicate a fundamental sea change at the FCC, one that, I predict, will generate even more such "re-writing" in the future.  Of course, this will all be much to the continuing horror of the “how-will-we-now-be-able-to-keep-the-“riff-raff”-out?” crowd.

To me, such fundamental changes indicate our friends at the FCC are finally realizing that their overly detailed,  “thou shalt not” approach to rulemaking (not to mention their constant need for maintenance of regulated Ham Radio sub-bands based on license class) are no longer fiscally sustainable in the face of an ever-shrinking slice of the federal budget.

And the fact that Mr. Hollingsworth’s list of Ham Radio scofflaws also includes a substantial number of Extra Class operators (I counted 16 on his list from just a three month period) certainly calls into question the oft-expressed belief by some Amateurs that the Morse test and incentive licensing have been wildly successful at keeping the “riff-raff” out of the hobby.  I'm sure these facts have also not been lost on our friends at the FCC... particularly on Mr. Hollingsworth!

Such dogged persistence in the face of overwhelming facts certainly suggests that those Amateurs who obsessively cling to such baseless beliefs are far less interested in “protecting” the hobby than they are in desperately searching for ANY excuse to keep newcomers from joining their (up to now) US government-protected, exclusive little “club”.  

It is also interesting to note that the shrill cries from many of these same folks have become more frequent now that the FCC has gone on record (as with their documented desire to finally drop the Morse testing requirement) to begin undoing their overly regulated (if not openly discriminatory) licensing practices.

In that sense, my friends, I believe progress IS now being made!

73,

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

 

Gotta agree with that analysis.

 

Absolutely agree, Tim! I, for one, would never have become a ham if I had to jump all the way to the top without a chance to see if I really liked it. I had so much fun with my Novice license (including obtaining WAS with it), that I worked my way up. With all I had going on, a career, family, other interests, it was great to have a chance to see if I would like it with minimal investment of time and money (first station: $75.00 - good enough for WAS in a few months).

Keep the incentive system and put the Novice back, updated, of course.

The only "caste" system in ham radio is one made up by those who do not wish to exert themselves to get to the top.

 

I also had fun working novice CW, to get my code speed up.

After getting Extra, there wasn't anything else to do license wise. Personaly, those early days of challenge were the most fun.

Folks talk about old timers being upset about how easy it is now. To me, I am glad that I got involved when there was challenge involved. I am glad that it wasn't given to me. Much better.

At this point, anyone can be an Extra for a little work. My wife did it from ground Zero in six months. So if you are upset that you aren't an Extra class, thats your problem, and current Extras sure don't need to apologize because you won't take time to memorize that silly test.

And, I sure don't see how we are that over-regulated, or how it is so hard to get to the top, but hey this thread is now second fiddle, and it is time to move up a level and gripe about echolink :>)

I'm sure that thread will become a real nightmare of ham love and understanding.

73 - W6NJ