Huggins Did It!

Discussion in 'Ham Radio Discussions' started by KX4Z, Jul 31, 2019.

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  1. N0TZU

    N0TZU Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    I always appreciate your viewpoints especially given the wealth of knowledge and experience you have. However, in this case I don't think you are giving enough credit to some legitimate concerns about Winlink and data stations in general. (I'm a bystander to this issue and have no personal interest for or against Winlink or other digital modes).

    True, a major complaint about Pactor 3 (and thus Winlink) was that the encoding and ARQ rendered it completely unreadable by a third party. This has now been shown to be false, at least as far as the demonstrations go by KX4O and KX4Z, which was a significant accomplishment.

    But the issues are much larger. Winlink has become a proxy for the problems with all automatically controlled data stations including hogging frequencies, interfering with ongoing QSOs, and generally not having good methods to screen for and block illegal or inappropriate content in real time. And also, in a general sense, with the conflict of digital modes vs. traditional analog modes.

    Rightly or wrongly, Winlink is also now almost synonymous with the general digital regulatory issues of Baud, bandwidth, and subband allocations (in the US). And in this internet and email connected world, Winlink represents a commercial corruption of amateur radio since it clearly seems intended to provide an extensive, parallel alternative to a commercial email service for sailors. That Winlink can be used by others including amateur emergency groups doesn't erase this history and continued use, unfortunately. (And if it weren't Winlink, no doubt some other service with similar issues would spring up at some time.)

    These are not trifling, petty matters, and really do require regulatory and enforcement attention. I do note and appreciate that Winlink has stepped up and done a lot of self-policing recently.

    It's unfortunate but predictable that all these issues would come up to the FCC during the present rulemaking process which isn't focused on Winlink per se, nor even on most of the issues above. Due to the nature of the regulatory process, small steps are advisable rather than asking for an overhaul of a large number of regulations at once, but some people are naturally impatient for all the issues (as they see them) to be solved and this is evident in their comments.

    As for the forum discussions and rulemaking comments looking bad from your vantage point, I would point out that the US has many times more licensed amateur radio operators than any country in Europe, yet the available spectrum is very similar. It's not surprising then that our issues before the FCC are perhaps more loudly and robustly contested than elsewhere, especially when it comes to issues related to spectrum utilization.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
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  2. SM0AOM

    SM0AOM Ham Member QRZ Page

    In my part of the world, this is a "non-issue".

    It may be caused by the fact that amateur radio is not intensely "marketed" as some means for emergency communications, as the Authorities here have fully adequate facilities at their disposal.

    Your concerns are founded, as there is a fundamental difference of viewpoints between the "old" and the "new" world.

    Amateur radio is seen here at best as a "scientific hobby", and not as a means trying to save the world.

    My concerns do however come out of that I have some insight into the internal workings of the ITU and the regional organisations such as the CEPT. Here amateur radio more and more is seen as an anachronism which has distanced itself widely from its heritage and from its definition in the Radio Regulations (this goes for the small minority that actually know about amateur radio. The majority could not care less.)

    The intense focus on "Emcomm" as the sole justification of amateur radio has been questioned on formal grounds. In parts of the world that have functioning Public Safety communications, it is questioned why expensive spectrum should be allocated for use that is not in any demand and which parallel existing.

    Maybe the situation is different in Region 2, but as the FCC is composed of humans, it is conceivable that they also get tired in the long run of the constant bickering and in-fighting.

    Something that would be entirely possible is that the FCC decides to "off-load" all amateur radio administration, issuing of licences and enforcement to the ARRL or some other private actor.

    As this has happened in other countries, it is known that such a move would please the control-freaks that run organised amateur radio immensely.
    It remains to be seen if they are the only ones that would be happy.

    73/
    Karl-Arne
    SM0AOM
     
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  3. KX4Z

    KX4Z Ham Member QRZ Page

    Hi, thanks very much for your frank listing of your concerns. I would be similarly concerned, except I'm not as convinced that they are as well substantiated as you might think, so let's review them candidly:



    1. "Unreadable" -- False (thank you for pointing that out)
    "True, a major complaint about Pactor 3 (and thus Winlink) was that the encoding and ARQ rendered it completely unreadable by a third party. This has now been shown to be false, at least as far as the demonstrations go by KX4O and KX4Z, which was a significant accomplishment." (Thanks!)

    2. Hogging Frequencies -- appears unsubstantiated.
    The vast number of WINLINK Gateways are inside 97.221(b) space, which is shared with BBS's, Beacons, and ALE. That is precisely what the FCC wanted. I haven't heard any complaints from any of these users...and I already presented objective data that any problems outside the 97.221(b) space is in the hundredths to ten-thousandths of 1%. So I don't understand any substantiation of any of this -- can you elaborate?
    " including hogging frequencies, interfering with ongoing QSOs,"

    3. Blocking objectionable Content in Real time -- Appears out of date
    In this area, not only have software solutions dramatically improved, but helpful policing has documented the objectionable material is now in the range of hundredths of 1 % . There is NO other area of amateur radio that even comes close --- none even have an objective measurement. "and generally not having good methods to screen for and block illegal or inappropriate content in real time. "

    4. Digital vs. Analog -- Appears unsubstantiated
    Winlink is virtually totally within 97.221(b) spaces. That's what they were created for, right? So how would there be an issue?
    "And also, in a general sense, with the conflict of digital modes vs. traditional analog modes."

    5. "Intended for commercial...." -- Appears unsubstantiated in real data, at current time -- See attached data.
    This myth of usage seems prevalent, so again, I went to the DATA to find out if it were substantiated. YOU picked the time -- immediately affter reading your discussion, I pulled the first 50 messages in the WINLINK viewer and read and categorized them. 86% had nothing to do with boating; 14% had to do with boating (genreally weather reports). I used to fly, and I used MANY normal weather outlets in addition to the regulated NWS pre-flight informaiton. There's nothing wrong with either usage. "free country". So I just don't see how there is any argument here, either. People with a license can use amateur radio to get information, make connections, communicate.
    " commercial corruption of amateur radio since it clearly seems intended to provide an extensive, parallel alternative to a commercial email service for sailors. That Winlink can be used by others including amateur emergency groups doesn't erase this history and continued use, unfortunately. "



    "These are not trifling, petty matters, and really do require regulatory and enforcement attention. I do note and appreciate that Winlink has stepped up and done a lot of self-policing recently.'"


    So, out of five potential issues, there appears to be little to no substantiation at this time, for any of them being any real issue. Am I missing something?

    THANKS!!!
    Gordon Gibby
     

    Attached Files:

  4. KX4Z

    KX4Z Ham Member QRZ Page

    ==========error....this was supposed to be replying to Karl-Arne...don't know what I did wrong...sorry! ==================

    Thank you SO MUCH for that insight.

    I play a bit of a "game" with our local group --- which had about 5 when i started, did NOTHING, and now has about 20, and DOES EVERYTHING.

    It is a "shell game" I explain that without knowledge, they won't know how to do something in an emergency when something breaks. That gets them to learning, and I push them to get a higher license --- we now have about 3/4 of them at Extra Class. Then they KNOW a lot more, and can DO a lot more and so they are more and more fascinated with radio and electronics.

    Then I come up with a project which has obvious usage for disasters....but is dirt cheap (<$20) and can also be used just or general ham radio -- and they show up to my house in DROVES to build, solder, teach each other, try new things.

    Then i come up with an EXERCISE which will get them to TRY NEW THINGS and shore up what they thought they knew --- and they show up and learn even more!

    I have n extra class lady right now trying to construct a microphone circuit which has exactlly 1 resistor and 1 capacitor, and it has her floored...but she is still trying, learning how to orer the parts herself, and eventually will learn how to mount them also.

    So by using every possible carrot....I get them to learn more, do more, be able to do more, get better equipment, develop new abiities --- and i tell them quite frankly, "This is an Anti-Alzheimer's Therapy Group, cleverly disguised as a ham radio club" --- and they show up for two-hour meetings with 4-5 presentations, and when the meeting is over, they keep talking to each other for quite some time in the dark, among the mosquitoes, in the parking lot.

    PEOPLE LOVE LEARNING.
     
  5. K0IDT

    K0IDT Ham Member QRZ Page

    KO0OOO, tel me what this operator is if not a frequency hog. Scanning multiple frequencies, on one band, for different modes, with no way for the brain dead clients to know the gateway is in use on another frequency so they just keep banging away in case the gateway is scanning and they missed it. Not nice and it doesn't exactly endear Winlink to the rest of the amateur community. That's one good reason to move all ACDS into one small sliver of limited spectrum.
     
  6. K0IDT

    K0IDT Ham Member QRZ Page

    See what I posted above then come back with your typical non-answer spread out over multiple pages. Hey, it's your thread, feel free to trash it any way you like.
     
  7. KX4Z

    KX4Z Ham Member QRZ Page

    Maybe i'm missing something,
    KO zero OOO does not appear to be a winlink systems operator.
    In fact, in that person's home state of nevada, there is only ONE hf RMS (that I found anyway) and it isn't him.

    upload_2019-9-24_14-44-48.png
     
  8. K0IDT

    K0IDT Ham Member QRZ Page

    Allow me the pleasure of answering myself. Evidently KO0OOO has disappeared from the RMS lists, either he gave up, or Winlink is reigning in all the outlaws and out of band stations. I would say it's commendable on their part but, after 2 decades of their lies and deception, it appears they are in more trouble than they thought and it's another CYA move. They made this latest FCC dust up all about themselves, and now they may pay a very high price for their arrogance.
     
  9. KX4O

    KX4O Ham Member QRZ Page

    Thank you both, above, for the enlightened comments.

    My approach towards any sort of emcomm is merely the concept amateur radio licensees take care of themselves during any sort of bad situation. Having two-way radio empowers the individual in such circumstances by adding another tool to their box of commo capabilities. Not a bad thing.
    As some of you might know, I am designing a packet radio system with modern thoughts applied to traditional ideas. Read all about it and the current running prototype here...


    Whether or not it succeeds is based in part of my listening to ideas from others. Ron your issue with lengthy polling has been heard and the requirement to reduce or eliminate this on our system is now elevated in the design. BPQ32 supports polling to make more use of radio resources, but I see no reason not to simply put one radio per port. Expensive yes, but will certainly provide better response time to the client.
    One hidden gem in the amateur radio world is the expertise with how radio works. For my sons, a ticket is a requirement. I don't expect them to adopt the hobby like some of us, but I do expect them to appreciate how well (or not) other radio systems work (or not) with the experience gained from two-way radio. If that is all they take away from their amateur radio call signs, I'm good with that.

    Of course others blaze a path towards a technical career in communications thanks in part to the spark they receive messing around with amateur radio. All of us should remember the secondary benefit to society that might be easily overlooked by producing capable future technicians and engineers to help continue the advancements everyone enjoys in the non-amateur world.
     
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  10. KX4Z

    KX4Z Ham Member QRZ Page

    There are some winlink gateways that literally do that --- multiple radios on different antennas, different Bands. I think N5TW does. Most others can't afford it, and as a service they listen to multiple bands. 7 seconds on each band. As a result, calls are about 30 seconds. if I call twice and get no answer, I know it is a waste of time. One minute used. if the frquency is in use, I go elsewhere.

    I don't get how this is a problem.

    And I can't discuss thiings, that simply are presented only from someone's memory. That's what they call hearsay, I think. or analagous.
     
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