Hf vertical without radials

Discussion in 'Ham Radio Discussions' started by KG5PNI, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. KA4DPO

    KA4DPO Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    That's because most educated people know better.
    NL7W, KC8VWM, W4IOA and 1 other person like this.
  2. K8XG

    K8XG Ham Member QRZ Page

    FYI, if an antenna vendor says their antenna is quiet, I get suspicious it is a very compromised antenna.
    W1BR likes this.
  3. W1BR

    W1BR Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    [QUOTE="K3EY ]

    Here are two end-fed antennas with zero radials which can hear and talk to the world. They have been up a while and I have communicated with every corner of earth.

    They work without radials and they work well.[/QUOTE]

    I see radials. There are always radials involved on a halfwave antenna, whether it is obvious or not.
  4. K6LPM

    K6LPM Ham Member QRZ Page

    I am not a scientist, but just my own dumb experiences and anecdotal evidence has led me believe that any vertical will be greatly improved upon in many different traits and ways with the addition of radials. Any number of radials and any length of radial will effect some sort of improvement in some way as opposed to no radial at all. (might cure bouts of gout too) .
    The reciprocal of this dumb experience and other dumb ancedotal but plain unscientifically based wisdom, gives me a strong tendency to not believe any vertical antenna manufacturers claim that NO RADIALS REQUIRED! The marketing, advertising and packaging always in big print, as if it is a very desirable high performance feature that this antenna features NO RADIAL REQUIRED. Well maybe it might not require radials but it might be very far off from its optimum performance.
    How many other of you guys have seen that phrase on the fancy printed box or packaging, but later notice the fine print in the owners manual that suggests radials?
    I cant be the only unscientific antenna LID that has been observant enough to notice the bold print vs the tiny print recommendation to add radials?
    Come on now,,,, some manufacturers actually sell optional radial kits for those NO RADIALS REQUIRED antennas they feature!
    Butternut HF6V comes to immediate mind! (BTW,,,, pretty freakin decent multiband vertical when you run it with radials)

    OK another big dummy word of unconventional Ham operator wisdom. Any aerial is better than no antenna at all.
    Similarly, Any radial will improve s vertical antenna than no radial at all.
    KA4DPO likes this.
  5. KA4DPO

    KA4DPO Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    In case anyone thinks radials are not necessary, look at an AM broadcast installation. They also usually have a matching network in a small building or container somewhere near the antenna to maximize power transfer. If it wasn't necessary to have all of that stuff, they wouldn't spend the time or effort to build it, just pop up an antenna and crank up the fire.

    The old fashioned way to couple to a half wave, end fed, vertical antenna, was to use a parallel tuned circuit, and a coupling link from the transmitter. A true half wave vertical will work without radials, but not without good RF ground very near the feed point. Also, a half wave vertical is only a half wavelength over a narrow bandwidth, usually only around 25 to maybe 50 KHZ at the most.

    The same holds true for an end fed half wave antenna, as long as you can get it up at least a half wavelength above ground and in the clear. You still need a way to match the very high impedance seen at the feed point and regardless of the matching device, the antenna will only be resonant over a very narrow bandwidth around one particular frequency.

    You can load a half wave wire on other frequencies, but not with a fixed transformer because the impedance changes drastically as you move away from resonance. You will also need radials under or around the antenna to provide counterpoise as you move away from the half wavelength.

    There are wire lengths that are not a half wavelength, or a multiple of a half wavelength, on any amateur frequency for 160 through 10 meters. These are what you might call a random length antenna, although they really are not random at all. This type of wire antenna can be used effectively on all bands using plenty of radials and a solid L network tuner.
  6. K8AI

    K8AI Ham Member QRZ Page

    Speaking of broadcast verticals, how about a Franklin antenna? Two half-wave antennas in colinear, fed in the middle. I know, not exactly easy or practical for a ham to do...
    KA4DPO likes this.
  7. W5LZ

    W5LZ Ham Member QRZ Page

    Completely beside the point:

    If you deal with radio you'd better learn to deal with noise. Noise IS! But then, how much noise are you talking about, and what kind is it? There are several sources for noise, most are man-made, but there's the 'natural' kind too. DSP can take care of a lot of different noise types, mainly of the re-occurring, or regular types. The absolute hardest thing to do is to just not pay attention to it, don't 'hear' it, 'tune' it out Do this stuff long enough and you'll find that happens more often than you'd ever believe. Until you realize what's happening and, bang, you can't do it anymore. Ever heard someone able to pick out what a voice is saying when you just hear a garbled mess? Oh well...
    (I said it was beside the point.)
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  8. K3EY

    K3EY Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    I see radials. There are always radials involved on a halfwave antenna, whether it is obvious or not.[/QUOTE]

    Do you see ghosts too?
  9. W1BR

    W1BR Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Do you see ghosts too?[/QUOTE]

    No,but an EFHW works against something... ground lead, coax... and I am not saying anything negative about Danny's antennas; they work fine.
  10. K3EY

    K3EY Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    No,but an EFHW works against something... ground lead, coax... and I am not saying anything negative about Danny's antennas; they work fine.[/QUOTE]
    My Point: Does not use conventional radials, my name is not anal.:rolleyes:

    about Danny's antennas; they work fine. No Kidding

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