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FT8 TEST on air "DXpedition Mode" on 6 and 7 March !

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by IW2BSF, Mar 2, 2018.

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  1. LA6VQ

    LA6VQ Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    If you want to disarm and develop your skills at the same time, you may want to consider unticking the check boxes, and run FT8 manually or semi-automatic, just like you would do running macros in any other digital mode. Then, in a fraction of a second you would have to look through the entire fast running herd, identify the best target, make up your mind on which single one of the herd you would want to hit, aim, get the target in the sight, and pull the trigger. If you are fast enough, you will get all these things done fast enough for your signals to be decoded by your target. If not, you have to work on your speed skills. Hopefully the target will respond, for you to continue and complete the process.

    FT8 offers you the opportunity and the alternative of running full auto, but it doesn't prevent you from exercising your fast eyes, fast mind and fast fingers in manual mode. Hope this can remove the boredom of "mass destruction" and bring back the thrill of improved skills and good hunting. Good luck.

    73 de Frode LA6VQ
     
    WU8Y likes this.
  2. N5INP

    N5INP Ham Member QRZ Page

    Right - up to a point. You don't make your own transceiver from scratch or many other things in the hobby (neither do I) so why draw the line at an arbitrary place such as the software we use? This is just moving that point. Such is the way technology advances ...
     
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  3. LA6VQ

    LA6VQ Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    Dave,
    Since you invited my thinking, I did. I guess you desribe something that has been technically possible as long as decoders and keyers for most modes, screen macros and/or remote control have been available, so that did not happen with FT8 or any of the other WS modes.

    If you have spent some time acquainting yourself with the FT8 DXpedition mode, you know that it requires quite a bit of mouse-clicking or Enter-hitting to be done by the DX Fox station. However, even if you have not made your acquantaince with FT8 Dxpediton mode, you seem to have forgotten, or suppressed, that for legal amateur radio activity you will need a licensed ham to be in control and operate the station. I read you like that is part of your definiton of "amateur radio". To my knowledge, physical presence applies ham radio licensing all over the globe. DXCC approval of the more exotic ones (for your comfort, many of them have no "local to set it all up") requires documentation of licenses, landing/entry permits and proof that operation physically took place from the claimed DXCC entity. I hope that can calm your worries.

    I understand from your campaign that you are no fan and no (longer a) user of FT8. That is fine with me, although I fear you are fighting for a lost cause. I'd be surprised if FT8 is not here to stay, just like yagis, transistors, SSB, phased arrays, a long range of digimodes, ICs, DSP, keyers, SO2R and lots of other technological and operational steps forward in communication. Don't be surprised if soon we have even faster digital modes, decoding even weaker signals in free message format, not requiring synchronization, and where you can take some liberties with the message format. That would be :):).

    73 de Frode LA6VQ
     
    WU8Y and KD2NOM like this.
  4. AA1PR

    AA1PR Ham Member QRZ Page

    if you dont exchange signal reports how can these qso's count towards dx
     
  5. W0PV

    W0PV Ham Member QRZ Page

    The WSJT-X v1.9 with DXped mode beta test session last night was interesting but not overwhelming. It does require a slight adjustment from normal FT8.

    Called Joe on 20m but had no joy in the limited time I could devote to it then. Later made a QSO with W7/KH7Z on the 40m channel. They have some bugs to fix. The experience didn't trigger thoughts of ham radio Armageddon.

    I find it ironic how so many who rant about innovations of digital technology in amateur radio cram so much time into online forums that they otherwise could use being on-the-air using any mode.

    73, John, WØPV
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
    LA6VQ likes this.
  6. KD2NOM

    KD2NOM XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    My thoughts as well. I did see Joe RR73 lots of contacts - I got one but we never completed the sequence. I saw another Mexico station also playing Fox and tried for him for a bit.

    It was very interesting to watch the process in action - the foxes all on the left side of the scope. I would stop transmitting every five or six sends to see if I was in a busy section of the band and move accordingly.

    Still some bugs to work out but excited to see this enhancement get used for FT8 DX Contesting and Special Event stations.
     
  7. KM4CQG

    KM4CQG Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Rodolfo

    Thank you for posting this info can't wait to give it a try today.

    Thanks Again
    Ian
     
    IW2BSF likes this.
  8. N5INP

    N5INP Ham Member QRZ Page

    Uh - signal reports are exchanged. They are also much better than SSB or CW signal reports because they are objective rather than subjective. The program calculates the signal report based on actual signal levels. :)
     
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  9. AA1PR

    AA1PR Ham Member QRZ Page

    Odd I heard since there is no actual exchange between the 2 hams of a signal report(s) , for example winter field day would not allow the mode based upon that
     
  10. W0PV

    W0PV Ham Member QRZ Page

    Real hams only use a straight key, spark gap and coherer ! :rolleyes:
     
  11. N5INP

    N5INP Ham Member QRZ Page

    Well if they said that then they don't know what they are talking about unfortunately.
     
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  12. KY1K

    KY1K Ham Member QRZ Page

    Who decided that signal reports are required for a "contact"? I heard them, they obviously heard me if they knew to respond with my callsign. I now have proof that the 2-way contact happened. I don't care if it was 59 or 32, -24 or +10.

    For those that complain FT8 doesn't send the signal and "one extra piece of info" - it actually sends up to four items exchanged. 1 That all-important signal, 2 your callsign, 3 your grid (unless skipped) and finally #4 is the confirmation & farewells
     
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  13. KF5FEI

    KF5FEI Ham Member QRZ Page

    No, the FT8 exchange did not meet the requirements for the Winter Field Day exchange - call, RS(T) and ARRL section. The only mode which uses a different exchange that was allowed was satellite.
     
  14. LA6VQ

    LA6VQ Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    It is the International Amateur Radio Union that has decided that a report is required for a valid contact. In the 2011 conference in Sun City, South Africa, IARU defined a valid "contact" to be one where both operators during the contact:
    a. have mutually identified each other (i.e. exchanged call signs);
    b. received a report;
    c. received a confirmation of successful identification and receipt of the report.

    My impression is that it is not uncommon to overlook the confirmations in item c., forgetting that the other party actually needs to receive your confirmation that you have received his confirmation.

    In practical terms for FT8 that means that a valid QSO is complete when the sender of the first report (the CQ-er) has confirmed to the sender of the second report (the respondent) that the CQ-er has received the respondent's confirmation that the respondent has received the confirmation of the report, i.e.:
    1: CQ
    2: Respondent replies with call sign and grid.
    3: CQ-er replies with call signs and report, i.e. now the call signs have been identified by CQ-er.
    4: Respondent replies with call signs and R + report, i.e. now the CQ-er has received the confirmation that the responder has received his confirmation of the call sign and report
    5: CQ-er replies with RRR or RR73 to confirm to the respondent that the CQ-er has received the confirmation of call sign and report, i.e. that call signs and reports have been exchanged and that both parties know that the other party have received confirmation that everything is OK. This is also what is included in the FT8 Dxpedition mode, where the Fox (DX station) ends his transmission with the first station with RR73, and instantly move on to the next station, without expecting a 73 in return. This is in line with what is commonly found in contests or in dx-pedition pileups, where the aim is to work as many stations as possible.

    At this stage the formalities are completed, and only common politeness remains with the 73 reply or exchange, depending on the CQ-ers use of RR73 or RRR. Some would argue that the politeness isn't required, but as RR73 is both the needed final confirmation and a polite greeting, it is only impolite not to send a final greeting in a normal situation.

    If in #2 the respondent's first response replaces the grid with a report (normally #3, the CQ-er's second transmission), the contact can be cut to two transmissions by each, as the CQ-er can respond with R + report (normally # 4, the respondent's second transmission).

    73 de Frode LA6VQ
     
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  15. W0PV

    W0PV Ham Member QRZ Page

    Consider Clinton D. DeSoto's legendary historical reference "200 Meters And Down" published in 1936.

    Owning a paper copy is best, but you can find it here now,

    https://archive.org/stream/TwoHundredMetersAndDown#page/n0/mode/2up

    In it DeSoto describes what could be considered the first legit DX event. It didn't have a signal report, nor even call signs! Marconi's first transatlantic report in 1901 consisted of only the letter "S" - dit dit dit, and was only ONE-WAY. And yet it was celebrated worldwide. (see page 15)

    The book has other amazing stories that still pertain to current events in amateur radio (even ARRL dissension!) including technological revolultions of "modes" that triggered heated debates of merit between hams, such as Spark vs CW (continuous wave), as well as those that were irrefutably positive,

    "With the beginning of 1926 there first appeared common amateur use of
    the technical development that has probably been the most valuable since
    the advent of c.w. in enabling increasing numbers of amateurs to work
    harmoniously and without ruinous mutual interference
    - piezoelectric crys-
    tal control of master-oscillator circuits. "
    (p 113)

    Couldn't something similar be said for FT8?

    Furthermore, it seems DeSoto predicted such innovations as FT8 in speculation, even pondered the social impact, as seen in the chapter titled "WHITHER AMATEUR RADIO?"

    "The social trend of amateur radio - its development as a social institution -
    will undoubtedly be toward the extension of extrovertism, or of that aspect
    in which human contacts and impressions are transmitted through the senses.
    The ordinary intercourse of the average human contains these senses in vary-
    ing degree. Ordinarily only two - hearing and sight - are employed; these
    suffice for conversation, business, most of the routine contacts of existence.
    Only in the more sublime incidents of life, the most advanced of human rela-
    tionships, are all the sensations - hearing, sight, taste, smell, feeling - em-
    ployed. But in amateur radio only hearing is available; even this has been the
    result of two major stages of development. Logically, therefore, the next de-
    velopment will be the utilization of the visual
    as well as the auditory sense.

    Probably the first step in this direction will be increased utilization of auto-

    matic record transmission and reception. (ie, FT8) One of the more important advan-
    tages possessed by code communication is that it is primarily record com-
    munication; the operator customarily copies the code either in longhand or
    on the typewriter, and thus can refer to the copy at any future date. Experi-
    ence with the importance of this characteristic lends validity to the statement
    that eventually automatic record communication will become commonplace,
    representing a convenient and satisfactory replacement of the telegraph code.
    Even now it is being successfully carried on in one or two notable instances.
    ...
    The growing popularity of such a method of communication seems inevitable.
    The channel occupancy is only slightly greater than for normal code communication;
    if used at slow speeds, no greater territory is required. A permanent record is available.
    At the same time, operating convenience is of a high order ...
    (p. 182)
    ------------------

    Again, that was over 80 years ago. None of that above is intended as a statement of my own judgement between FT8 versus other modes or technology. If point-to-point amateur RF propagation is involved, I enjoy using them all, whether in a bare minimum exchange or a long winded round-table QSO.

    73, John, WØPV
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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