FT8 overflow frequency and PSK operators

Discussion in 'Ham Radio Discussions' started by AC1IZ, May 29, 2020.

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  1. KK5JY

    KK5JY Ham Member QRZ Page

    Most are. Some aren't. Some are just buggy machines.

    The good news is that FT8 is one of the few digimodes whose users expect to find each other in one specific place per band. Most other digimode users know how to move around as needed.
     
  2. K8XG

    K8XG XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    ^ that does not mean the FT8 can move out the PSK folks since they can move and FT8 folks have a frozen VFO; I truly think this new and future FT8 issues is going to turn me into the Curmudgeon I never wanted to be but now understand why...
     
    AC1IZ, KC2RGW and WE4B like this.
  3. N6PAT

    N6PAT Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    It's really amazing how much resistance there is against FT8. It's just another mode of communication yet some folks think it's the destruction of ham radio.
     
    W4JHU likes this.
  4. N5HXR

    N5HXR Ham Member QRZ Page

    As a new ham, I avoided it out of principle. It feels like a human TCP handshake. But I did try it when I saw the 10m and 6m band openings. After all, the only people to be found in those brief openings were on FT8.

    It seems pretty bizarre how dominant it is. I am very interested in actually meeting people and conversing, so it remains pretty weird to me.

    I'm not bitter or anything. To each his own. But I think all the eaches should have a fair chance at their own.

    It doesn't seem so much like communication to me as the merest proof that communication would be possible if anyone were interested in that.
     
    AC1IZ, KC2RGW and K8XG like this.
  5. N3HGB

    N3HGB Ham Member QRZ Page

    Then I can get WAS :)
    *Worked All Subnets
     
    W4JHU, K0IDT, WG8Z and 3 others like this.
  6. KP4SX

    KP4SX Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Thing is that often the band might not be open well enough to support voice contacts over the same path.
     
  7. K8XG

    K8XG XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    N5 hit the nail on the head, it is not communication, its just like a TCP handshake to prove a connection. I like all the other FLdigi and JS8 modes and still try FT4 out here and there. But with the way FT8 is working on the ham bands, there really is not any Radio Fun in it to me from mouse clicking stations I want to Ping and get an ACK.

    Like many things in life the Herds flock to the popular "thing"; It is not the end of Ham radio, but I don't have to like it either. That is why I am so glad JS8 gives us Conversation back as well as messaging.

    And "Worked All Subnets" is a Hoot !
     
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  8. K8XG

    K8XG XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    You reminded me, that was done in 1998 I believe, and took the internet down for part of a day. I remember the outage, but it was in 2007 that I attended a 10 day internet security class in San Diego and the instructor mentioned how in his younger days, he used a professional crawling program based on HP OpenView to SNMP crawl the entire internet routers; but later found out he took the internet down with all the "Discovery" traffic each router was sending to their peers.
     
  9. KC2RGW

    KC2RGW Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    It can’t coexist with other modes because the JT/FT ops either don’t know how to operate or don’t care and TX right over any other activity that is ongoing. If you’ve ever seen one of those damned fox/hound operations where they break from the standard operating window, they just pick a random spot with other ops ongoing and dump FT8. It renders the whole band segment dead.

    As proof, if I’m calling with Thor or MFSK or Olivia, almost daily there are people piling in to answer with FT8 or FT4. The ops have no idea what they are doing.

    This all causes me to have to run outside the designated windows for the modes I operate which is bad etiquette. So it’s a compounding problem. PSK as an example has a defined window. Let’s take 14.070 as an example. You can pile a ton of PSK into 3kHz there. PSK ops know where to look. For Olivia or others being wider, they are run typically 1kHz to 3kHz up so as not to interfere. It’s common courtesy. That window was the miscellaneous window for modes other than PSK for years.

    The drastic change is, with keyboard modes, attended by people, there are only emissions as people communicate. With all the JT variations they are largely automated and unattended and send constant beacon tones. They permanently occupy the segment where they are dumped and run continuously. This renders the band segment unusable by anyone else. This is fine if it is “channelized” to a fixed window so people can avoid it.

    The issue is, some AH decided that no other digital operators matter and dropped this steaming pile of useless noise right where all other digital ops have existed for years. The ARRL itself dumps unattended automated CW into the PSK portion of 80m and will fire it up right on an ongoing QSO every time. At least that is a known QRM issue that can be avoided.

    How in the haystack of the spectrum are all the other mode ops supposed to find each other now that the few kHz that were home have been dumped in? There’s a reason to define windows, to make it easier to find contacts as well as allow modes to coexist that would otherwise interfere.

    Winlink is a very similar issue. The nodes are wholly unregulated and once they are parked they own the frequency. They beacon continuously and do not honor dwait and will just fire up over any other activity. It’s almost like a repeater and it is the same issue if people just put up an uncoordinated repeater that interferes or is dropped on a simplex allocation. By design it is packet and configured and regulated properly, Winlink nodes should occupy the same frequency. Instead people put them everywhere and disable ARQ and dwait and just smash away ignoring all other channel traffic. Winlink should have designated channels as FT8 or other modes should have designated windows. Instead they just decided to dump the new mode on the years long established window for almost all other digital modes.

    The Winlink problem is now causing interference with the long established NBEMS channels on 80m. NBEMS is used for traffic handling and for emergency communication. Now we have unattended Winlink nodes that will QRM any traffic during actual disasters.

    The beauty of the digital modes was being able to run very low power with compromised antennas and make solid contacts. Now it’s an arms race that requires QRO to get over top of the QRM of these new unattended noise makers in order to communicate. It’s a waste of electricity and wipes a lot of users out of the equation who can’t run full sized antennas and an amp to get through.
     
    AC1IZ, K3UJ and N5HXR like this.
  10. KP4SX

    KP4SX Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    I wouldn't be too sure of that. Of course some have automated their operation but I'd guess most haven't.
     

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