FT-8, The New HF/6m Digital Mode, Introduction For Beginners

You crack me up. "We are digimodes. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

FT8 in its current form has been out for what, a month? And we're already to, "let's get ARRL to get FCC to make the digimode bands bigger."

I remember when ARRL was saying that "PSK-31 will be the new RTTY," and how much better it would be in contests. And somehow the major contests are still "live" modes -- RTTY and CW. Interesting.

 

Thank you for the video. Now I understand more about the software and will try it tonight when I get home.

 

Is there a current list of bands and frequencies that FT8 is being used on?

 

K1JT himself suggested some frequencies, http://qrznow.com/new-digital-mode-from-k1jt-ft8/ ...but the settling place appears to be somewhat different. Most of the activity I have been watching is just below the JT-65 window on 40m and 80m.

 

Current wsjt-x 1.8.0 rc1 has the following default frequencies for FT8 (4m not shown).

 

Realize I am not a "digi-mode guy"; I use whatever mode works for what I what I want to do.

I am often a contester. And in the CONTEXT of contesting, JT family modes (those not credited equally to K9AN) as well as PSK31, DO NOT QUALIFY for use in contesting.

IMO this is incorrect. Operationally, for CONTESTING, the dissimilarites between JT-65/PSK31 vs. FT8/PSK63 or >. are hugely meaningful. The key word was mentioned - FASTER. The evidence is readily apparent in the use of the latter in recent contests, including those recurring on HF like the EAPSK63 and others.

Yes, the major data contests are still "live' modes, RTTY. As always in HR, there is a legacy operational preference inertia to overcome, just as there was when SSB took over from AM. However, early digi modes, like PSK31 and JT65 were just TOO SLOW for contesting.

But, IMO, for CONTESTING a technical evolutionary inflection point has passed. CONTESTERS now realize that there are suitably faster digi alternatives.

In addition, long term bad solar conditions are driving the perception of this and will probably be the biggest catalyst fueling conversion or adding a FT8 / PSK63 etc option in the future to major contests. In turn that will force new sub-band planning as well. Like it or not, contesting now is a major driving force in OTA activity.

The ARRL should seriously consider adding a DATA mode operation category option for the 10 Meter contest this year. Let the competitors choose and decide which digi mode works best for that. I bet they go with FT8.

73 de John - WØPV

 

Interestingly, there are a few RTTY contests that have added PSK as an option, although I have never seen anyone actually run PSK in such events.

Agreed. The dissimilarities tend to work against using JT/FT modes (I don't know how else to describe these). There's no way to listen to the channel to time your transmission, or detect when you are colliding with someone else, and even if that were possible, there is no partial copy in these modes. Transmissions have to begin and end exactly together, which means the pile-ups are going to be a mess. Since these modes are FM modes, capture effect will worsen the effect. Can you imagine a 2m FM contest? The capture effect will make it virtually impossible for the discriminator to dig anybody out of the pile-up.

Aside from speed, FT8 and JT65 are not significantly different, operationally. They use the same software, with the same buttons, and the same workflow, and they convey the same information in roughly the same way, bitrate notwithstanding.

Maybe, but I doubt it.

Think about the work flow. You call CQ in FT8. That takes 15s no matter what. Five people respond. You can't copy any of them, but that takes 15s no matter what. So you send "AGN?" or something similar, and that takes 15s, no matter what. Lather rinse repeat. Even in an ideal situation, the process of CQ, other call, exchange out, exchange in, TU73QRZ takes 1.25 minutes, or a maximum QSO rate of 0.8/min.

Even if both stations include their full exchange in their initial calls, it still takes 45s, at minimum, to send CQ TEST KK5JY EXCH_OUT, then KK5JY N5OSL EXCH_IN, N5OSL TU KK5JY CQ EXCH_OUT, and assuming that you can fit it all in the associated messages, your maximum QSO rate is 1.3/min, assuming that nothing has to be repeated. Just one repeat will cause that to go to 0.8/min.

A good CW or RTTY op can leave those numbers in the dust.

So even if you all eat up the band with an FT8 contest, running essentially multi-split to avoid colliding with each other, an FT8 contest will be slooooooooooow.

I'm glad you all are so excited about a new mode. It definitely has its uses, as I explained earlier. Competitive HF contesting is not one of them. FT8 is not taking over the world. It is not going to be the only mode that survives on ham radio as some earlier posts imply. It's a new toy, and its current popularity will fade until it becomes about like the other new toys, at which point it will be another tool in the toolbox.

 

Thanks for the reply and info Gary, hope to catch u on FT-8 bands..73..Norm

 

Great! Another waterfall pattern to try and guess. Is there a program that automatically recognizes and decodes ANY and ALL modes? It is a pain in the rear trying to figure out what program to use with all the different warbles and squawks on the bands. My eyes glaze over when I open HRD and see all the dropdowns for 20 different variations of PSK, RTTY, FSK, Olivia, SSTV, ect....

 

FT8 is a paradigm shift. For contests, or DX'ing, it will change the way operating is performed.

"Listening" to the channel before xmitting, other then to determine its a wanted contact, seems irrelevant. As always, when its time time to call xmsn starts. Pile ups will be pile ups; the mess will simply be sorted out differently.

FT8 in WSJT-X actually has the advantage of being able to decode more then one responder in each call if they split slightly apart in freq (not time), a skill only top notch analog contesters utilize now. That is one new way to sort out the pile up.

Don't confuse the limited features of the current WSJT-X software with the potential advantages of the FT8 mode for contesting. Enhancements are rumored to be fast underway specifically for contesting. Plus I would imagine other developers like the authors of N1MM or SDR apps are thinking hard about adding FT8 too.

A QSO every 1.3. min is equivalent to a rate of 46 per hour. Wow, whats wrong with that?! Depending on the contest scoring rules, that could be hugely decisive after a CME / GEO MAG storm hits or in picking up band-multipliers on otherwise neglected bands during long-path or other off-peak times.

Partial copy is irrelevant. Nothing is slower then a RTTY or PSK station trying to make Q's in the face of horrible polar multipath fading or other bad prop. Repeats and bad exchange copy erode that rate and adds scoring losses, or worse, penalties. FT8 FSK w FEC, while still a bit ponderous yet far more accurate, is likely to require many fewer repeats or fills, a potential great advantage to SCORING RATE.

Yes, when the BAND IS OPEN a good analog contest op will always be able to out pace a typical FT8 run, by a long shot. BUT, sadly, the times those band condx occur, even for hi-QRO superstations, are getting more and more scarce.

Subtle anxiety rather then excitment is how I feel about the new modes. The convergence of the Maunder Minimum with the dawn of the JT / FT8 era is different from past such events. It's more then just nostalgia too.

I've felt a great disturbance in The Force

73 de John - WØPV

 

Not at all. Listening actually increases everybody's Q rate by minimizing collisions, and allowing for partial copy of calls. This is true for all modes (that support it).

Partial copy helps de-pile a pile-up, particularly when there are several strong stations responding. Propagation is propagation regardless of mode.

Wow, I didn't realize I was a "top notch contester." A few Hz is one thing... one or two (or ten) bandwidths away is another. I have seen plenty of the latter, but not so much of the former, at least with the JT modes.

I can understand that.

 

Experience in actual DX or contest operating would disprove most of what is stated.

 

hi ft8 users i have been on ft8 since day one just over one month have now worked 95 dxcc in ft8 with just abit off wet string well 20m hb dipole @ 8m ts590sg @ 75watts @ 31 dxcc on 6m 2e quad in tree see my qsz page 73 de gordon

 

So you are saying that during a contest, partial copy provides no help in de-piling a pile-up, and running stations work others that are several necessary signal bandwidths away from their running frequency? That would be something like 10kHz or more for SSB, and 2kHz or more on CW or RTTY. Nonsense, I say.

 

What frequency is FT8 used on 10m? I know PSK is 28.120 and JT65 is 28.077?