Do Contests Need to Change? Kyle Krieg AA0Z Makes His Case

Did you read the description of the presentation?

The description clearly states he will discuss "tips and tricks...mastering tbe art of amateur radio modes including FT-8."

You can read into gaming any way you want. I don't think he implies "cheating." I suspect he is using the word "gaming" as a teaser word...similar to advertising.

I think some of you guys have your panties in a bunch over nothing.

 

Yes Chip, I read it and analyzed it. I think you should re-read it with an open mind so as not to get triggered by certain words.

This talk is a discussion of tips and tricks for contesting. Plain and simple.

 

Restatement of a claim is not supporting a claim, and using the statement of a claim as proof is circular reasoning.

To make a QSO under certain conditions, takes skill. Hole 1 on the old course at St Andrews in 3 strokes, takes skill. Rain and a strong crosswind are first order effects that will affect all participants, and their outcomes. High levels of geomagnetic activity will affect all participants and their outcomes. The player with the lowest amount of strokes at the end of a set number of holes wins. The player with the highest total qsos and modifiers at the end of a time period...wins.

You still haven't proven that a contest is any less deterministic than a game of golf in Scotland on a wet and windy day.

Or maybe not all games are deterministic, so using that as a measure of whether something is a game a flawed premise.

Whole-
heartedly
a
game.

 

Nope. It is specific to 'gaming'.

There is already CONTEST UNIVERSITY at Dayton, Thus the non=need for 'contesting tips' by NA2AA representing the ARRL..

 

Nope. Sorry. Golf is deterministic. Ionosphere is not. Unless you can prove that golf is NOT ballistic--to FIRST order.

 

Peas are deterministic, carrots are not. First order avoidance, distraction, and misdirection.

Scanned a few contest rule sets and couldn't find ionosphere mentioned anywhere in the rules.

I'm taking my toys and going home.

 

I'm taking my toys and going home.
</sarcastic mocking>

Contesting is not a game:
all games are deterministic because they lack sufficient randomness (stated as absolute) contesting is random because of "ionosphere" (not entirely relevant tangent)
selective two meaning definition of "gaming" provided
contesting requires skill
contests are radiosport, not gaming.

I've been drawn into tangental distraction a few times in this thread, but you still have not sufficiently proven that contests are not games, and that the act of participating in said is gaming. You have used circular logic and "just because". The foundation of your claim is based upon two things that you haven't proven disproven; "games are required to be deterministic" and "contests are not games because a condition that is not a graded dimension of the rules is incredibly random (sic)"

A contest is fully deterministic for any practical sense of the matter, you can model the expected proportionality of total contact outcomes based upon multiple factors between participants, none of which introduce any degree of selective randomness. I think in fact you could handicap and sportsbook radio contesting if there were more than two interested gamblers...

Can you sir logically state, and support, your claim that contests are not games?

 

game
noun
ˈgām

1
a(1)
: a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other
(2)
: a division of a larger contest
(3)
: the manner of playing in a contest
(4)
: a particular aspect or phase of play in a game or sport
a football team's kicking game

(5)
: the set of rules governing a game
(6)
: the number of points necessary to win
(7)
: points scored in certain card games (as in all fours) by a player whose cards count up the highest

 

definition(s) of gaming

Note there is no THIRD definition.

And there is no "gaming" in Part 97 amateur radio, despite the assertions of ARRL CEO NA2AA, who appears to want to 'coin' his own definition of the noun in his Hamvention Forum:

[ˈɡāmiNG]
noun

1. the action or practice of playing video games:
   "I'm fourteen years old and enjoy gaming and playing baseball" · "smooth animations and tastefully designed graphics make for an effortless gaming experience"
2. the action or practice of playing gambling games:
   "gaming is evident everywhere in Las Vegas, not just on the Strip" · "US states are already moving to regulate online gaming" · "thousands of people flock to these gaming establishments every year"

 

From Merriam-Webster's Intermediate Dictionary

 

At this point, these exchanges serve no value to others.

NA2AA is trying to concoct a new definition of 'gaming' . Whether you are I agree is immaterial: the world does not see "gaming" in the way he describes it. The world uses the definitions (noun) of "gaming" in ways that do not and cannot relate to ham radio. To wit:

"Delve into the world of radiosport "gaming"!--NA2AA

Maybe he means put down your bets on K3LR, W3LPL?

Frankly, the CEO of the ARRL neither has the credibility nor the import to 're-set' amateur radio into 'gaming". MO.

Furthermore, this forum talk ('contesting' not (sic) 'gaming') is not needed given the CONTEST UNIVERSITY presence at Dayton.

If you wish to take it offline then send a PM. Otherwise, please conclude these exchanges.

 

Right, and there's no "game" in Part 97 either, hence there is no explicit prohibition.

 

BJ…
I did not read the description of the presentation….I wasn’t questioning that.

I questioned your use of “gaming the system” to describe it. That phrase to me is synonymous with cheating. And “manipulating modes”? What does that mean?

That’s all my post was about. Why didn’t you just say “tips and tricks” in the first place? Then I wouldn’t have asked you for clarification.

 

NA2AA , in his May QST editorial, calls for a 're-set' of amateur radio.

It is clear,IMO, that part of this supposed 're-set' is to change--'re-brand'-- rather than solve.

Tips and tricks on using modes in radiosport is fine topic. It's's just not one he is the --best-- qualified to address , especially given the redundancy of said 'tips and tricks' for radiosport at CONTEST UNIVERSITY, which happens simultaneously at Dayton, by other contesting authorities .

Folks want to know what the CEO is doing to bring Part 97 forward, solving problems. Re-branding , the flavor of the month apparently, has no evidence of being that answer. MO.

He has no authority to 're-set' radiosport as "gaming", nor is there any evidence that the contesters wish to 're-brand' contesting--radiosport-- as "gaming". MO.

73
Chip W1YW

 

IMO @W1YW is calling it out correctly.

In the video @34:45 AA0Z states clearly "We have the technology. They do it in the gaming world today!"

The 2024 Hamvention ARRL forum program descriptions first sentence - "Delve into the world of radiosport gaming!"

These appear as attempts to first comingle the descriptions of radiosport with gaming, as well as urge that the former be moved more into the domain of the latter.

The rationale appears to be that, since this has been done in other sports, it would be a modern way to increase the "entertainment value" of radiosport and therefore attract and draw in more "young people".

IMO, this is at best a slippery slope and at worst courting unneccessary risk for Amateur Radio, in more ways then one. The worst being as Chip pointed out, as the authority & ultimate regulator of the essentials required to conduct Part 97 radio in the USA todays FCC would be more easily swayed by outside interests to exploit and degrade our privledges.

Look at the effects that "gaming" has had on those other sports. It started in ernest with the relatively recent split SCOTUS overturn of the PAPSA act in 2018. This has led to a tsunami of online sports betting apps. These apps, connected in real-time with unfolding sports events, now offer what is called same or Single Game Parlays or SGP. See description here.

These have led to increasing concern over the degradation of integrity of games, ie potential FIXING, taken from curious misplays being made during a game of any sport, to a recent alarming increase in obvious blown calls by MLB umpires. This has been reported on in the MSM - Online Gambling Is Changing Sports for the Worse

I think it would disasterous to push Amateur Radio contesting into more of these types of online interactions. Despite the potential to draw in people, it's for the wrong reasons!

73, John, WØPV