D-STAR - The Most Exciting New Mode

I am here in New Orleans and in contact with emergency officials every day. Yesterday I began asking them about Amateur Radio and Winlink. They said "Win WHO?". For the first few days, I provided generators and SAT phones to primary law enforcement agencies. There was no power for Winlink.

In fact, monitoring the airwaves in the city, I'll assure you that CW played more of a role in emergency communications than Winlink here.

 

With 2592 posts since May 05 2003, you have averaged 3 posts a day. How many of these were constructive and encouraging? Asking a non-ham about WinLink is like asking a garbage collector about a surgical procedure. You provided generators and SAT phones because there was a buck to be made. <span style='color:blue'>I am willing to bet that you are in the communications business and never considered learning how to use WinLink because there is no profit in that.</span>

You say that CW played more of a role in emergency communications than Winlink. How do you know? You say in one paragraph there was no power for Winlink, yet in the next paragraph you say there was power for CW. What is the difference? The same HF rig that is sending out CW could also be sending out WinLink packets. It appears that you don’t know the difference.

Our club has an emergency generator that we use to run HF and VHF ham radio equipment, should there ever be a disaster in our area. This service is for free, because members in our club chose to make this a priority. I am sure that the CW activity that you heard on the airwaves, if it was originating from the disaster area, was sent by hams that were prepared. I once herd of a ham that hooked his antenna tuner up to a metal lawn chair and made several contacts that way.

I would like to urge all people who are reading these posts, to go back and read the original post. The purpose of the original post was to discuss the possibilities of the new D-Star digital network being developed for the digital VHF ham radio band. Only the first chapter of its story has been written. Only as history evolves will the real story be completed. Possibility thinkers, not wet blankets, will complete this history.

<span style='color:red'>Late addition:</span>
I just found out by looking up your callsign on QRZ, that <span style='color:red'>you are currently Sr. Project Manager for large cellular company.</span> I guess that answers my questions. I notice that most of your equipment is very old. I think that is very admirable and seems to fit your needs quite well. I just ask, that you pay the same attention to new technology for ham radio as you do for the cell phone business. Only than could you give a honest answer.

You have the ability and the know-how to study the possibilities of D-STAR amateur radio. I challenge you to do this so that you can give an honest report on the subject. This would be greatly appreciated by me and other fellow hams.

 

In the early 1990's, Iraq invaded Kuwait killing tens of thousands of innocent people. This invasion included rapes of innocent women plus raiding hospitals of incumbators needed to protect the city's "most vunerable" people-new born children!

In the midst of this disaster, amateur radio was a major source of military intelligence responsible for saving thousands of Kuwaitii civilians and North American troops.

Ask yourself which amateur mode(s) were actually responsible for assisting the allied forces with intelligence during this invasion.

( a) CW on HF radio
( b) VHF/UHF/EHF radio
( c) pulsed mode HF digital radio
( d) SSB HF radio
( e) D-Star radio
( f) satellite phones
( g) both ( b) and ( e)
( h) both ( c) and ( e)
( i) all of the above

Please check with your local director for the correct answer.

Ed

 

Edwin C. Jones of Mammoth Lakes, CA – AE4TM

I see from your biography that you are currently licensed as a Professor of Medicine and Surgery in California. I hope that you treat your profession with more sincerity than the way my post was treated. Earlier on, this thread was hijacked by a group who had very little interest in promoting the furtherance of our hobby. They changed the direction of this thread by confusing the true purpose of my post.

Your pole is a red hearing. I would vote for “( i) all of the above” if it wasn’t for one small problem. D-STAR amateur radio did not exist in the early 1990’s. It hasn’t even got its feet wet yet in 2005. It is new. Take a look at the name D-STAR. It is short for Digital Smart Technologies for Amateur Radio. Notice those last two words, “Amateur Radio”. It says that it is a mode designed for amateur radio, not commercial radio.

Since I started this thread to discuss the possibilities of D-STAR DV on the 2-meter ham band, all other modes in your pole are irrelevant as far as this thread is concerned.
I notice from your biography, that you are well versed in almost all modes of amateur radio. I invite you to look at http://www.icomamerica.com/amateur/dstar/DStarHistory.asp to find out the true history of D-STAR. D-STAR is not an ICOM product, although they are the only ones that are currently supporting this open standard. If enough hams could see the potential that is in this standard, other manufacturers would also start making D-STAR dual mode VHF and UHF ham radios.

Should you take up this challenge, I invite you to post your true findings on this thread. An educated, honest opinion would truly be a welcome sight.

 

Thanks for your opinion Jan,

Yes I do take my profession very seriously and this extends to amateur radio as well. Our hobby is reserved for the purpose of emergencies, technology, experimentation, and rag chewing to name a few. I suspect you agree as well.

In regards to your comment that someone hijacked your thread, I assure you it was not me. Please go back and read my postings carefully. I posted an honest opinion early in your thread that I felt Pactor was the most advanced development in amateur radio in years. Unfortunately, it seems to have attracted those who disagree despite the scientific data I collected showing otherwise. You mentioned my comment being a "red hearing". I too wish I could vote for "(i) all of the above" but like D-STAR, Pactor did not exist during Desert Shield/Storm! (Please note that ICOM did exist during this same time period). In case you're not already aware, Pactor was strongly built upon a mode that does stand as one of the answers in my question in my last post. This only serves as a good reason why we should promote all modes because all modes have the potential to expand into newer modes keeping our hobby alive.

The next time you initiate a thread posing a challenge to a comment please have the courage to accept any critism. My postings were made for the purpose of constructive critism only.

Ed AE4TM

P.S. I've never collected a penny off Pactor - it's not a commercial mode within the amateur bands. On the contrary, I've spent a bundle in fried finals and antennas vaporized by lightning in the my home state of Tennessee playing with this mode in amateur radio experiments.

 

I have learned a lot in the last month. I really appreciate your reply. I have learned that you can learn a lot about a man from even a short biography like those found in the QST database. Often the biography reads of a narrow, self-serving lifestyle. Other times you see a broad based life experience that is shared with others. We, as hams, have a duty to prove that we deserve the spectrum that is given to us. This includes 100% of every band and every mode that we use. I never did believe that a lack of natural talent should keep a person from trying some of the things that he wanted to do. I believe that Pactor, or a reworked version of it; will become more relevant to our hobby than it has been in the past.

Things are becoming smaller, more versatile and more powerful as the years move on. Applications that were only used with Pactor are now starting to find their way into the VHF, UHF and SHF bands. D-STAR is yet in its infancy. We are only learning to walk, on the 2-meter side of it, and it will take some experimenting before we learn to run with it. It stands to reason, that as long as man has a dream, he will conceive new ideas. One such idea is WinLink 2000. If you didn’t hear much about WinLink during the current disaster, it is most likely because it is a one on one connection through the email system. Nobody is going to hear a lot when only short packet bursts are involved. Give the history a chance to be written. A well-prepared ham with a good knowledge of his equipment needs only to string up a long wire and attach it to his antenna tuner. He need not run out of power because you can always scavenge batteries from all the cars that have been destroyed. Where there is a will, there is a way.

It is no longer feasible for the average ham to try and build his own equipment. I can remember building simple equipment with my oldest son, when he was young. It didn’t always work. That simple beginning was the spark that caused my son to become an electronic engineer. I just wish that I could have become a ham earlier on in life, so that all my children could have been exposed to it from an early age. I was always left to believe, that if you couldn’t do CW, you couldn’t be a ham. I have a lot of friends that passed their CW test 20 to 30 years ago, and have never used it since. They learned it because they had to, to get on the HF phone bands. I have another friend who was a Telegrapher for over 40 years, and has problems programming his new HT. We don’t all shine in the same area of our hobby, but if we work together, it will work out.

We, as hams should be helping each other out. We all have different skills and levels of experience. If we don’t learn to work with each other, this hobby will stagnate and die off. Some how, I don’t think that is going to happen. The whiners are going to slow down progress a little, but only because they are followers, and not leaders. The leaders of today are going to stimulate thought about new possibilities. Useful technology will continue to grow, while useless technology will fall by the wayside. As far as the whiners are concerned, they will always be following us.

This will be my last post on this thread. I think your reply made a very decent ending for this thread. I have had a lot of fun with it and am not disappointed with the results.

 

Yup. It's an 800 mhz. radio to be exact, minus the squelch. The average cell phone user does not understand that, but most hams do.

 

It's called linking. My radio thru the the net, and it comes out on another radio, sometimes many thousands of miles away. Kinda cool if you ask me. Your bio was a real eye opener, you are clearly a very bitter man.

 

Go to: http://www.southgatearc.org/competitions/ic-v82.htm and enter to win an ICOM IC-V82. Your odds of winning are better than if you buy a lottery ticket and it won’t cost you one thin dime.

 

I think the FCC should make a determination whether or not use of DSTAR to view commercial web sites or using email is a rule violation.

Once the commission sets the precedence then should nip this concern in the bud.

 

From the Desk of WT7P,

Ladies and Gentalmen,

I have watched the inovation of technology move forward for 40 years.  The cause for most of this inovation, most consistantly has been for more efective use of the spectrum.

Back in the Sixties, for those who remember it, in the commercial side of the house I helped my farther convert hundreads of "Buiness Band Radios" from the old wide band modulation schem (15KHz Dev) to become compliant with the new rules that mandated the "NEW" narrow band schem (5KHz Dev).  Thus creating two channels for every one under the old rules.  By in large, and for the same basic reasons.  In the Ham Radio Community, a new "Technology" came forward that didnt cause hetrodynes, gave us a 66% increase in eficentcy of our equipment, and used 1/2 the band width of "AM".  That technology was, "Single Sideband Surpress Carrier" SSB.

Now comes along the new digital modes of modulation.  In so many respects I see digital modes of modulation as dismul failures in the new wave of technology.  First of all, there is one inescapable fact, to move data fast it requires lots of band width.  Which in this working  technician's mind is a gaint step backwards, not forward.  Specificaly where voice information is to be conveied.

The real problem for digital modes of modulation is the intergraty of the square waves of the multiple data streams involved in the process. Even with voice band compandering, it is a faint answer at best to recover "Quality Voice" from the very limited spectrum realestate that the voice communications portion is squeezed into.

In short, the D-Star system for mobile and hand held work, I very much have yet to be sold on.  What does excites me is the D-Star 10 GHz microwave back bone system, that I see as a fantastic platform for a whole frontier in networking in lots of areas.  This portion of the D-Star system I am watching closely with great antisapation.

Thank you for your time to read my thoughts;

Myron Lusk / WT7P / PG-10-14930

 

The entire State of Colorado is ALREADY covered by a Statewide APCO Project 25 system, and most agencies who haven't spent a large amount of money on any other trunking technology (EDACS, Motorola Type II, etc.) already, are converting over to the State-operated
system.

It's not a dead system or standard. It works, today.

The State also voted to fund 50 more tower sites for the system in next year's budget.

 

I realize your post is 6 months old, but I need to reply so that others reading this thread are not mislead.

You say Motorola ASTRO audio sucks. I disagree.

Not too many people (or industry professionals unfortunately) are aware of FIRMWARE UPGRADES for ASTRO radios. There are stupid people using firmware from 1995-1996, which doesn't sound great at all. Their radios have an inferior IMBE codec, and do not support audio AGC.

Now fast forward to 2006. Current firmware for first-generation (XTS3000, Digital Saber, Digital Spectra) ASTRO gear is:

Portables:
HOST: R07.25.00
DSP: 08.03.03

Mobiles:
HOST: R11.25.00
DSP 08.03.03

Radios from 1995 are running firmware versions like HOST 4.xx.xx and DSP 6.xx.xx. They sound HORRIBLE.

Properly maintained subscriber equipment with latest host/dsp firmware combinations, which use audio AGC (only supported after host verson R07.01.xx) sound AMAZING.

You can't even begin to compare IMBE systems that are a decade old, to current generation equipment/firmware/programming. Too many scanner/ham folk who don't understand ASTRO technology think it's all the same. Not a slam to anyone in particular, it's more of an FYI.

Anyone running a P25 system (conventional/trunked) without audio AGC and DSP firmware version 08.xx.xx, is in the dark ages.

The Canadian RCMP use host R05.51.00/DSP06.04.12 in their portables. The system is so inferior, that an AM CB radio sounds better.

Before commenting on P25 systems or technology, people really need to educate themselves on the various issues that affect performance. You can't really beat the audio quality of a current P25 system. My system sounds amazing, and the users are extremely happy.

 

VA4UHF is the call sign listed for Pathfinders Amateur Radio Club Inc. in Winnipeg Manitoba. The membership list shown on the QRZ database for VE4PAR lists at least 24 members for this club. Sad to say, this post does not give the name the individual who wrote this post. Even the member profile is left blank when I click on the call sign. This secrecy leaves the whole purpose or motive of your post in question.

Hams will always use old, second-hand commercial equipment. That is the nature of this hobby. Unfortunately, some hams refuse to acknowledge the fact that APCO P-25 is a commercial radio standard and D-STAR is a ham radio standard. Both systems can be used by hams, but they will never communicate with each other. APCO P-25 radios will never become available as a commercially built “Ham Radios”, while D-STAR is already available in at least five different models of commercially built “Ham Radios”.

Both systems will continue to improve in their own fields, but I suspect that in ten years D-STAR is going to be the dominant force in amateur radio, for VHF and UHF. By that time, there will be enough used D-STAR equipment around to satisfy the needs of hams in our hobby that are not interested in purchasing new equipment.

The original post was written to discuss the merits of D-STAR for ham radio. It was not intended to promote one system over another. For this reason, I have decided to stop replying to most of the posts under this topic. If you are truly interested in finding out more about D-STAR, go to D-STAR for the second Century of Amateur Radio at: http://www.icomamerica.com/amateur/Dstar/ .

 

D-STAR is NOT a standard, but an open protocol - based on the AMBE codec (which is the brother of the IMBE codec.)

The IMBE codec has been adopted as a radio industry STANDARD, which is covered under APCO25 (which is much more than just this).

Even though APCO is geared towards the public safety community, its standards are followed thoughout the radio industry at home and abroad (where applicable).

I don't doubt that DStar (not D-Asterisk) has some cool features/potentional, but without some real infrastructure out there to support it..its just another expensive toy for now.

However, with the advent of many 2nd hand commerial digital radios and repeaters, I find that for at least the time being, and for some time to come, the IMBE based digital radios will be the choice for digital playing in the ham bands. Lets face it, you see quite a bit of Motorola digital radios being operated in the digital modes at ham fests these days. Even at the last little podunck flee market I was last at, there were at least 5 people using such radios and digital mode.

And I was in the middle of no where at this flee market.

With that advent of Kenwood, ICOM, Tait and other IMBE enabled radios out there...being the only true universal digital radio, ICOM has a long way to go to prove that it can compete.