ARRL report - No Consensus Reached for FCC on “Symbol Rate” Issues

Discussion in 'Ham Radio Discussions' started by W0PV, Jul 17, 2019.

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  1. W6EM

    W6EM Ham Member QRZ Page

    Here's the problem with that approach. Incoming email authors are not necessarily aware [that] ham radio has no expectation of privacy. Even if they were somehow given directions, it's doubtful that in someone's haste to write an email that they'll remember.
    The ECPA is pretty clear that a "service provider" is not allowed to release server content without permission. I frankly don't see a "way out of this box" unless Winlink were to do like Congress does, provide a message form on a website that clearly states that the content will be transmitted over open, unprotected amateur radio.
    Yes, true.
    Not true, if what I read is accurate, per the ECPA and the responsibility of the service provider. In our case, Winlink is the service provider.
    Again, can't be readily done in an easy way for incoming Internet source emails. Besides, Title 18 is much more likely to award some time in the cooler than Title 47. Not sure exactly where, but there probably are restrictions and penalties for passing along financially sensitive information such as credit card numbers, bank account numbers and SSNs that find their way into the Winlink system.....
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  2. W3WN

    W3WN Ham Member QRZ Page

    Well, there’s the conundrum, Lee.

    FCC rules state in effect that there is or should be NO expectation of privacy in anything transmitted over the Amateur bands under an Amateur Radio license. And they prohibit encryption.

    ECPA says that the “service provider” IS responsible for providing an expectation of privacy. And related rules indicate that encryption is in effect required.

    These two federal rules & regulations, and everything that goes with each of them, are in conflict with each other. You can’t do both at the same time. You can’t send something in the clear with no expectation of privacy, and simultaneously provide an expectation of privacy.

    So, this would seem to mean that 3rd party incoming email (whether it is through Winlink or something else) fo an amateur radio operator cannot be automated. Further, it would seem to mean that said 3rd party (potential) users must, MUST, be informed of pertinent FCC rules under 47CFR.

    IMHO, Amateur Radio should not be used to circumvent commercial communications services. And this is not a Winlink issue. This is the same problem we used to have with the “missionary” amateurs who used HF phone patches and communications for “church” business, back in the days before cell phones and satellite phones. It was wrong then. It is wrong now.
    WJ4U and K0IDT like this.
  3. W4MHZ

    W4MHZ Ham Member QRZ Page

    This is all well and good. Now let me tell you about a commercial system that runs along the eastern seaboard. It belongs to Verizon. It operates in the 900 MHz band, full duplex, NBFM voice. It extends at least as far north as Washington DC and at least as far south as Raleigh NC. It absolutely services the eastern shore of Virginia. It is 100 percent in the clear (unencrypted). As far as I can tell it repeats or "backs up" the copper line service in that area. As I was the principal engineer at a WISP (Wireless Internet Service Provider) it fell upon me to identify the interference we were experiencing in our service area. We were running Motorola Canopy systems in the 900 MHz ISM band. I happened upon the network that Verizon operates. One day while explaining the interference we were experiencing to a fellow I ran up my scanner and showed him the signal. Quite by coincidence I happened upon one side of a conversation between my mother and my step-father. His voice was quite distinctive and I recognized it immediately. I went home and called mom to ask her if she had had a call from him at her office that afternoon. She indeed had. Neither end of that link was wireless. Both phones were on the copper at each end. Before you start citing the law about intercepting landline communications realize this; that law does not prohibit the monitoring of communications systems for the purpose of maintenance and interference mitigation.

    So how exactly does this play in your scenario of who is responsible for what? What do you think Verizon should do about this problem because when I talked to a lady who said she was a VP she told me the FCC couldn't do anything about it. Just curious?
  4. W3WN

    W3WN Ham Member QRZ Page

    Who gives a bleep? We’re not talking about a commercial system serving commercial customers, we’re talking about an Amateur Radio system that is supposed to be serving Amateur Radio operators.

    A Verizon 900 MHz system does NOT fall under 47CFR, aka Part 97. Neither does a Verizon landline system. Or any other common carrier system.

    Whether or not the scenario you are describing is or is not legal under current laws is NOT within the context of this thread’s discussions.
  5. DL6MAA

    DL6MAA Ham Member QRZ Page

    I think it's pretty bad that Prof. Rappaport again claims that PACTOR cannot be decoded "for true meaning" - and he
    even cites our first comment filing to the FCC as a reference for his opinion. For heaven's sake, where does our FCC filing
    state that PACTOR cannot be completely monitored? I wrote Rappaport several times directly on how the facts are,
    no response at all.
    There was also another FCC filing from SCS that clarified it again: The "gibberish" does not come from the PACTOR
    modems, but is simply a consequence of the dynamic compression used in the application software (Winlink).
    In spite of all this, Rappaport remains to continue claiming completely "alternative facts" in a meeting with the FCC.(!!!)
    That should not be the way how to deal with these issues! I get the impression that someone is not playing fair.

    73 de Peter
  6. N9LYA

    N9LYA Ham Member QRZ Page

    I will take your advice and take a vacation from this for a while.. Have a fun project coming up. Finally getting my Solar Array installed.. I will be watching this going on.. Assuming this time FEDEX delivers everything . They lost my Pallet of Hardware and Inverters etc.. I do have 50 LG Double sided 315W Solar Panels on my Front Drive way! :)

    I understand there are better ways and means to an end.. Privacy at any level of electronic communications cannot be guaranteed. I know in the beginning of Email anyone (IT?) who owned a server that email passed thru could access and read the emails.. Now a days, Yes maybe most normal email it can be expected. But Hackers make that a non-guaranteed situation as well. I never expect anything of mine not to be viewable by someone unintended Email, Text, Phone call. and especially WINLINK EMAIL and more expectedly a Packet Bulletin or Personal Packet Message..

    I also want to remind... Anyone wishing to monitor The Ham Bands can do so. No ARRL Affiliation required. Only the equipment to do so and a pen and paper and a hotline to the FCC. So OO or VMS or just Joe Blow sitting by at his Arm Chair station can report.. If everyone knew this it would work like Drug tests at work. Most would comply to avoid the worse case... Some may not. But then they would be out of here..

    Have a good day Lee.. 73 Jerry N9LYA
  7. N9LYA

    N9LYA Ham Member QRZ Page

    How can anyone believe emails passed on NORMAL COMMERCIAL Emails Servers can be Private... Not heard pf Hackers??????

    Even the Whitehouse cannot use Personal/Public email servers... lol
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  8. AG4RT

    AG4RT Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    Regardless of the reality, there is still the expectation of privacy on normal commercial servers.
  9. W3WN

    W3WN Ham Member QRZ Page

    They’re not. Never were.

    Despite that, the general public has an (actually unreasonable) expectation of privacy. And most people simply don’t believe this, no matter how often you explain it.
  10. W0PV

    W0PV Ham Member QRZ Page

    Meanwhile gotta love this news headline from the ARRL.

    What could be better then merging Big Gun radiosport with WINLINK traffic! :cool:

    Hawaii ARES Leverages Contest Station and Winlink for 2019 Simulated Emergency Test

    Looking forward to a future digi Sweepstakes contest with simulated radiogram exchanges being sent via WINLINK Radio Only and P2P. Fun fun fun. :D

    Bet even @N2RJ could put in a big score! :p

    Ham radio - use it or lose it. ;)


    ARES volunteers in Hawaii took the opportunity of the 2019 Simulated Emergency Test (SET) on October 6 (UTC) to test Winlink radio messaging to the US mainland, using the KH6YY (KH6J) contest station on O’ahu. One of the premier contest stations in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, KH6YY offers a commanding propagation path over an expanse of saltwater.

    “You have to start with digital modes somewhere,” ARRL Pacific Section Manager Joe Speroni, AH0A, said, conceding, “We have a long way to go.” A group of radio amateurs has developed a robust Winlink system in the Hawaiian Islands to help support communication in a natural disaster. The Amateur Radio email system is well known for its role in emergency and disaster relief communications, providing the ability for users to exchange email with attachments, photos, position reporting, weather, and information bulletins. Winlink was extensively used in the aftermath of high-impact hurricanes in the Caribbean, as well as following an earthquake in Mexico.

    Hawaii boasts the most isolated population center in the world — 2,390 miles from California and 3,850 miles from Japan. Pretty much everything is DX.

    KH6YY sports eight antennas, most on 90-foot towers, and nine operator positions. For the SET, the station was configured to receive traffic on 7,100 kHz (dial frequency) in PACTOR, WINMOR, ARDOP, and VARA modes. The four-element 40-meter beam was aimed at Hilo. Simulating an internet outage, the setup was used to pass received traffic to a second 20-meter gateway on 14,100.5 kHz and forwarded to a mainland gateway with internet access.

    Incoming message traffic on 40 meters would be automatically forwarded to the mainland on 20 meters. Most of the traffic went to gateways in Mexico and Texas for forwarding to the internet. One user reported receiving email confirmation that a message was received within minutes. — Thanks to Stacy Holbrook, KH6OWL


    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
    DL6MAA likes this.

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