ARRL Petition to Expand Technician Privileges

Discussion in 'Ham Radio Discussions' started by K4KYV, Mar 2, 2018.

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  1. W2AI

    W2AI QRZ Lifetime Member #240 Platinum Subscriber Life Member QRZ Page

    Eric, I was 12 years old when I first got involved in amateur radio back in '69. And the adult hams in affluent Westchester County, NY didn't really take a liking to kids in the hobby. But that didn't stop me from continuing because that is what I wanted to do--communicate with people via two-way radio. And for the most part, I was self-taught relying on the Ham Radio magazines and periodicals available at the time. More so; many of the adults hams on HF wouldn't be bothered talking to kids!! However; that didn't discourage me nor did I have any thoughts of leaving amateur radio even through I was inactive for many years due to apartment house living.True, a lot have changed in 50 years but that is part of the evolution of radio communications and electronic devices. Even if amateur radio licenses were available without any need for examination--I doubt there would be few, if any takers. What KD0TLS is describing can be applied in any situation: jobs, dating, relationships, other hobbies or interests. There will always be a "pecking order" or caste system--that's a reality of life. People are like water in that they tend to seek out others whom are on the same socio-economic level as they are. A way to overcome it is to set priorities and if you want something bad enough--how far will you go to get it without breaking the law? And if you are "bored" or "lost interest" in something; the right course of action is to abandon it. Happens that way with employment, relationships, or anything else that might come up in life.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
    WG7X and KC8VWM like this.
  2. NN4RH

    NN4RH Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    It's just his schtick. He's been playing this for at least five or six years.
  3. KD0TLS

    KD0TLS Ham Member QRZ Page

    So I laid out the facts. 13 people who had left the hobby said they were treated like idiots. Another ten who stayed said they were treated like idiots, but that's the price you have to pay.

    What would be the 'objective' conclusion to be drawn here? That new hams really are idiots, because the senior hams 'know' that they are?

    Sometimes, angry people are right. You have not examined any of the facts that I presented. You have not provided any contrary evidence. This is "par for the course" with senior hams.

    What you have done is rejected everything I've said based on tone. Why did you ask for information on the questions, if you had already made up your mind that my tone disqualified me from being taken seriously? Even your response asking for more information had a "dig" in it. And when I provided you with the information that you asked for, completely and honestly, you again rejected what I presented simply based on tone.

    Apparently, the tone that you prefer is fawning. That's kind of my point.

    What have I said that confirms the view of these senior hams that I am a moron? You know nothing of my background. Yet, you are willing to defend people that you don't even know for treating me like I'm a moron. And you are anxious to ignore over a dozen licensed operators who have had the same experience. Why is it that you can't accept the obvious bias that you, yourself, display as the prevalent attitude? Instead, you point to the factors that have led others to leave the hobby as invalid, simply because I've failed to show you proper deference as you blithely dismiss my concerns. Based on tone.

    My point remains: people are leaving amateur radio because they are treated as second-class, and for no valid reason. Do you have something in response to that? Should I be sanguine about this situation, so that I can get a little pat on the head from you? Ignore my tone and respond to the issue.

    I've watched several good people leave amateur radio because of a misguided effort from senior hams to bolster their egos. I've endured this same treatment myself, and been condescended to by my superiors when I suggest that it's destructive. I sit in a thread and watch Technicians as a Class get dismissed as lazy and stupid. Then I see the 'solution' to this problem being presented as an upgrade to General Class for these putative morons. I lay out a case with evidence and offer a simple solution: stop treating Technician Class licensees like they are morons.

    Oh, but the tone! Gosh, I failed to show deference to someone who is determined to reject anything that I say in advance.

    Whatever, Exalted One. If somehow, in some vague way, you deal with a Technician in the future as something other than a drooling moron with no valuable input, then this entire sordid exchange will have achieved some positive impact. If it doesn't, then at least I've tried.

    I've laid out the case for senior hams refraining from counter-productive behaviour. They simply have to stop some of the 'helpful' things that are not helping at all. Is that so radical and worthy of derision? Show me something in Part 97 that supports the idea that new licensees need to run a gauntlet of abuse to prove that they are worthy of a licence. Please point to something in Part 97 that says that operator Class is equivalent to military rank or a sign of intelligence. How does a Technician walk into a General Class exam as a confirmed moron, but emerge as a non-moron? Explain the mystical, transformative process of this exam.

    But, yeah, you can continue to reject all of these rational things simply because I don't display the proper tone. It's my fault, really. You questioned me and ignored every answer, but it's only because I failed to acknowledge you as my superior in the manner laid out...where?
  4. W2AI

    W2AI QRZ Lifetime Member #240 Platinum Subscriber Life Member QRZ Page

    My response to the above post. Who cares?? Apparently this gentleman has certain personality 'issues' to continually rehash this topic. Derogatory Name-calling other posters won't win any brownie points to his worn-out rants.
  5. KD0TLS

    KD0TLS Ham Member QRZ Page

    Okay, so it's a rant now. And you're the objective one. Whatever the "intentions" were, I doubt that they involved an entire Class being treated like morons. Which is my point. People are leaving, not because of privileges or operation, but because they are treated poorly by well-meaning senior hams who mistakenly believe that they are being helpful.

    Oh, gosh, as long as they don't intend to drive people away, I guess it's okay. Never mind that my point was that these people are well-intentioned operators doing counter-productive without realising that they are actually driving people away. I completely failed to mention that it was unintentional (?), and somehow I conveyed the impression that it was deliberately malicious. This is because you were busy proving my point by substituting my intelligent observation into something stupid that I never implied, and responding to that. My mistake, I guess.

    None of this has anything to do with my remarks or the proposal, but I'll just sit and pretend like you're being relevant, because I don't want to present the wrong tone. You are, of course, my superior and must be respected as such, even when you demonstrate that you are ignoring everything I say.

    Could you please point out any example of where I supported this proposal? I've been saying this is a bad idea from the start. As someone that followed the rules and got the licence that I wanted, in accordance with my interests, would you explain how this justifies being treated like a moron -- as you have in the past here on QRZ? Extra points for explaining how your idea of a proper entry level licence justifies designating Technician Class licensees as second-class morons that aren't entitled to expressing any opinions other than agreeing with their Exalted Masters. You know...something relevant.

    You know damn well that you aren't sorry, and I haven't asked for any advice. What advice could you possibly offer to the dozen or so operators I mentioned that left the air because people like you refused to listen to them, and treated them like idiots? Get used to it? It'll end when you upgrade? "Spin the dial" is worthless advice when the majority display the same mindset. Or perhaps you glossed over my mention of that in my 'rant". Or maybe you are now substituting my "well-intentioned operators doing counter-productive things" with the "small and rare cases of malicious operators deliberately driving people away" narrative that I specifically said was not the case? I don't need to "change the repeaters", Roger. I just need to get through to a small number of open-minded senior hams that the things that they believe are 'helpful' really aren't. It seems that you aren't one of them, because you only listen to people that confirm your pre-conceived notions. You truly believe that HF is devoid of these attitudes? Probably. It's another 'experienced' operator that believes all other 'experienced ' operators treat everyone the same way -- even as you prove otherwise in my case. I mean, people don't treat you like a second-class operator, so you can't possibly conceive of your peers doing that. And if they do, they don't mean to. So it's all good.

    In all of this, you've studiously ignored the point that I've repeatedly made as eloquently as possible: this behaviour is not helpful, it's not encouraging upgrades, it's driving people off the air, and none of this is the intention of those engaging in this behaviour. Maybe they should stop it, rather than engaging in critiques over tone.

    In summary, you've disregarded every point that I made while criticising my tone as the real issue. I'm sorry that you can't stoop down for a moment and imagine that an Idiot Tech would have something relevant to say. I'm sorry that you are going to continue to push HF operation as the solution to poor treatment. I'm further sorry that you expect fawning respect from people that you disrespect by treating them as unworthy of consideration. I'm sorry that you mistake condescension for respectful discourse. And last, I'm sorry in advance that you will respond by dealing with things that I never said, as is your habit.
  6. W4IOA

    W4IOA Ham Member QRZ Page

    Hardly enough evidence beyond anecdotal. My experience is most technicians that drop out do it because 1- They bought in to the ecomm hype, 2- they put little effort into learning anything, and 3-it was boring.
    Schools, businesses, hospitals and such have been pushing employees into the tech license for emergencies. I've met quite a few who wanted an ht for catastrophic emergencies. Others got in and found it boring.
    Portland metro area had quite a few repeaters that I could always find something interesting day or night. Here in Memphis there seems to be one nightly net that does primarily check-in amd that's it. Any other time the repeaters are silent. Fortunately the local clubs do a lot of civic activities for the techs who want to be involved.
    People are sold a pig in a poke concerning ham radio. ARRL thinks offering up more privileges will fill their coffers, problem is most newbies aren't interested in their magazine or spending any money on gear. Biggest question is "what's the cheapest ht can I get?".
    Are OT's grumpy? Yes they are. Do they chase off others? Only the ones who have no real interest. There is no shortage of techs, the only shortage are those who want to put any effort into it.
    Most don't.
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  7. NL7W

    NL7W Ham Member QRZ Page

    Well said, OM.
  8. W4IOA

    W4IOA Ham Member QRZ Page

    Sorry, I don't deserve that lofty title. But thank you for the complement, maybe someday I'll earn it.
  9. WZ7U

    WZ7U Ham Member QRZ Page

    OK, now I see both sides of this latest development. Oddly enough, I think TLS still has a point. Maybe because I lost my gruntle about things a long time ago. ;)
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  10. KY5U

    KY5U Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Probably because they really WERE idiots. I don't understand why people would get so upset at a little tough love. Here's a hint though, threatening to quit amateur radio makes no difference to anyone. Nobody is going to beg you to stay. You want Techs to be motivated to upgrade, rename the Technician class. Change it to Rookie Class. Novice would even work. Nobody wants to be a rookie or a novice even though they don't know jack about the hobby.

    P.S. The ARRL doesn't care about any of us. We're just dollar bills to keep their good ol boy club going longer. Just say "no" to the ARRL and their money grubbing plan. Fix themselves before suggesting any further changes to amateur radio.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
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