Anonymous Postings Draw Negative Consensus

AA7BQ · May 14, 2002

I'm very pleased with the general outpouring of opinions and exchanges regarding my previous article entitled "The Shield of Anonymity". The poll was an overwhelming landslide in favor of banning anonymous postings however it failed to indicate how this could actually be implemented. A small but important detail to be sure.

Clearly, the majority of QRZ system users and administrators alike agree that the majority of problem postings on this site originate from members who are anonymously registered. Many of the respondents, however, failed to understand the true definition of anonymity as it applies to QRZ (and as stated in the article) and as a result, a fair number of folks simply reiterated that the practice should be abolished.

All users that post to this site must first be Registered, and this means that we have verified their secret return email address by means of a message exchange.

That said, most folks by now realize that if you can anonymously obtain an email address (such as Yahoo or Hotmail), then what's the difference? Well, not much. The fact remains that you can use any working email address to register with QRZ. This is the entire essence of our registration mechanism.

I'd also like to point out that our experience has NOT shown that persons registering with non-callsign names are a problem in general. Most of these folks simply want increased privacy but are otherwise good citizens. We support that notion with certain reservations. Unfortunately, the same records do show that the bad guys are almost always anonymously registered.

Furthermore, my open-ended musing that suggested perhaps only known callsigns be registered was never a serious consideration. We have always welcomed non-hams and prospective hams on this site. Anything less would hurt our hobby by excluding the very pool of people we need to attract to keep it alive.

Others have suggested that we require some sort of identifying documentation such as a scan of a license certificate, a driver's license, birth certificate, etc.. Yes, these are all good tools except that the sheer volume of such material would overwhelm us. Furthermore, it has to be applied to about 130,000 existing users. Are there any volunteers who want to wade through 130,000 poorly scanned images, faxes, letters and phone calls? I didn't think so. (the actual number would be only a few thousand but even then it would still be quite a chore to review them).

Would you like to hear of a proven method that cleans up anonymous abuse AND provides anonymity to those seeking online privacy? It's money. That's right, dollars $$$. I belong to several websites that have large, diverse memberships where people pay to belong. While the members are completely known to the publisher by virtue of a name, address, credit card and telephone number, they can still choose any username they like and maintain complete anonymity to the user community at large. The very fact that somebody knows who they are is generally enough to prevent most mischief. Furthermore, when they get banned, they pretty much stay banned! A good example of this is the ARRL's Members Only section.

Yes, it's a horrifying thought that QRZ might no longer be completely free to all users. On the other hand, some mixture of paid support and free services could be very healthy. Under such a sceneario, non-paying users would still be able to use the site, the practice exams, the callsign database, and view the discussions. Posters, however, would have to subscribe. The money from these subscribers would essentially pay for the cost of identifying them. How much? Probably less than you think. Something on the order of $10 per year, or FREE for QRZ CDROM subscribers.
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Just in case you have your calculators out, note that only a couple of thousand people regularly post to the forum. Our 130,000 users include all those who have password access to their callsign records, however, those types of activities would remain free.
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We have no plans at this time to convert any part of QRZ to paid subscription however I wanted everybody to understand that if they really want anonymous users banned that this would be one way of doing it. Just imagine if we could rid ourselves of those who derive pleasure from tormenting others behind a cowardly shield of anonymity.

In the meantime, we're doing what we can do. What's that you ask? Well, our administrators (a.k.a. editors) are now trained to give the benefit of the doubt, or preference if you will, to non-anonymous users should a problem arise. If you're accused of harassing someone and you won't identify yourself, you're out. If you are caught re-registering after having been banned under another name then we have legal recourse to proscecute you as an electronic tresspasser.

So, in conclusion, we hear the popular mandate to ban anonymity. If only there were an economical and/or trustworthy way of doing this, we would. Meanwhile, we'll just keep plugging along, laughing and smiling, grimmacing and crying, along with everyone else.

Oh, and don't forget these two first-grade rules:
Play Nice and Don't Hurt Anybody.

Tell us what you think. Click on the Add Reply button and speak out! We are listening....

73,

-fred

Guest · May 14, 2002

OK, so by restricting posting to paid registered users, you seem to be implying that having money makes you honest.

Um, I don't think so.

That having been said, it's your site, do whatever you want with it.

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Sorry but you missed my point. What makes people honest is knowing that they can't hide. The subscription argument supposes that positive identification is part of the payment process.
-fred
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KB7TBT · May 14, 2002

you mention how to make this happen, it is simple..

make the registered users ALL HAMS..

they can make a user base id with you with there call sign, address and any other confermation you need to make sure that only hams post..but have the option to have a "handle" of "joe blow"..

make the info private to your database only.

NU7T · May 14, 2002

Americans stand behind their beliefs.

K4BB · May 14, 2002

Hey, Fred, you asked for our opinions, now the remedy is up to you.

You are correct, charging for the priviledge of posting to the forums is one way of limiting the lids. It has nothing to do with assuring honesty, it just adds a hurdle for the abusive posters.

Alternatively, you could have the pay-for-posting policy and eliminate the charge for users who contribute equipment reviews, for-sale ads, or worthwhile articles to QRZ.COM. I would think these users would tend to be the more serious and appreciative of your services.

I have noticed that most registered Amateurs do not have biographical information listed. Perhaps offering free services to those willing to post some information about themselves would be fair. That way, if you wish to remain anonymous you pay money, and if you are willing to be open, you pay with personal information. Amateur operators automatically have their names and addresses listed as part of the data base. I don't see why we can't have the same information on those who are not amateurs. That is a fair choice.

There are probably several ways to attract and offer free services to the appreciative user. The threat of a monetary cost would be effective in keeping lids away.

Thanks for the great service you give.

Bob
K4BB

KE4PJW · May 14, 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC0MPL @ May 12 2002,20:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OK, so by restricting posting to paid registered users, you seem to be implying that having money makes you honest.

Um, I don't think so.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Yes it will. The reason is the method of payment. You are no longer anonymous. You must give _YOUR_ credit card# to register. If you commit fraud, well getting banned will be the least of your worries.

This is like any behavior modification scheme. In order to be effective, it must make the risk too high for the benefit. That's why people have starter disables on their cars and bars over windows on their homes, to keep thieves out. The risk is too high for the benefit.

KD7KOY · May 14, 2002

I can see the point in not wanting people registered "anonymous".
But let me say this.
We seem to be living n a world where people want to know just about everything about a person. And lets be honest. In most cases this "knowing" is usually used for not so benelvolent purposes. Some say living in this age it's just the way it is. Wrong..living in this age we should be especially careful in giving out information to anyone, especially on the net.
Any system administrator worth his floppies knows that computers are the most unsecure machines in this age.
Like the Social Security number, that was meant as an "account number", now it is used, or should I say demanded by various organizations from banks to voting.
Good?..I'm not so sure. A persons privacy is his/her own business.
That being said, this is the internet. You will on occasion, get people who have no other life but to cause problems for others. Thats just a fact of the medium. USENET for example has "moderated" and unmoderated newsgroups. Moderated is filtered. Unmoderated is basically, a free for all. There are various options available to me. I read over it. I delete it, I filter it. To a system adminsitrator, his options are even more.
This is a private site. You can do what ever you wish.
However, it would seem, through moderation of forums etc., the vast majority of incidents can be dealt with through the keyboard. Banning names, IP's or an e-mail to "root@butthead.net" threatening to ban a domain,(root, being the administrator for you Windoz people.) usually gets a response from the persons ISP.
To be frank, I see just a bit of "over reaction", lets make another law, another rule, more restrictions. Use the tools you have.
I may add that anyone who gives out his credit card number on the net is asking for trouble. Not only have numbers been stolen but data bases cracked for the numbers. I know it seems to be the "norm" these days, but it's an accident getting ready to happen.
To the people who remember Archie (NFSnet)...Veronica..where art thou?!!

KG4TGY · May 14, 2002

Seems rather simple to me. I just got my call sign today. While it is in the FCC database, it is not in yours yet. So I decided to add it to your database myself, but could not. It seems that to be in your database it has to come from the FCC. Why not just base your registration on your database? That way it doen't matter if they have an anonymous e-mail address. Having a callsign that matches yours and the FCC's databases does away with anonymity. Just a thought.

N7CPC · May 14, 2002

I don't have a credit card and don't see myself falling into that trap for this or any hobby related activity.

To quote my Grandfather," If you want it and can't pay for it, you don't need it. If you need it and can't pay for it, get a different job!".

Credit alone ends more families every year than almost anything else.

Ham Radio is a hobby. Not brain surgery.

I pay for QST not the ARRL's political clout. Or the members only website. ( Allthough ARRL call sign database knows who N7CPC is where QRZ does not.)

Does money make you honest? How many polititions are hams?

So, If you gotta have a credit card to stay here, I guess that would count me out.

73 de Craig.........N7CPC

P.S. Look it up at Buckmaster, it's mine. cc

OK, so it's there now, it wasn't a couple of hours ago. Sorry Fred, better late than never!
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Better late than never???

You posted your article around midnight. Your callsign was added to our database at 11:AM - 13 hours before you made your posting.

So, let me see if I understand you correctly:

1. Credit is a bad thing because that's what your granddaddy said.

2. You think QRZ is great, but not worth helping to pay for.

3. QRZ is substandard in your view because some other website posted your precious new vanity callsign a few hours before we did.

Does that about sum it up?

-fred

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N8EMR · May 14, 2002

Since there is nothing to tie an FCC callsign to an email address, someone just picks
a valid callsign and registers it.Problem is not solved.

How do you determine if a "email address is anonymous or not" Granted yahoo.com, hotmail.com are
generally anonymous. I have my own domain name and I can add machines or email address anytime I want.
How is that any more "secure" than an email address tied to some unknown ISP?

I use yahoo.com for registering at many web sites mainly because I dont want junk mail that some sites want to send.

If people want to be a pain they will just go to another email site not on the "blocked" list and register.
Heck as a road runner user I can create an email account register, delete the account and be done with it
so even using "known ISP" doesnt solve the problem.

AA1MN · May 14, 2002

Dear Fred,

Let me start by agreeing with the comment posted by N7CPC. I don't have a credit card either, not because credit is a bad thing as you stated, but once you start paying for things you don't have the money for to begin with is the quickest cure for saving money.

N7CPC reiterated the saying I have lived by for my entire life, "If you can't pay for it you don't need it."

The day I have to pay for www.qrz.com I will no longer need it.

Unless you -- yes, Fred I mean you -- intended to start posting pictures of pretty ladies without wearing clothes on this site holding amateur radios in provocative positions it will not be worth me paying for.

So how about it? You up to the challenge, Fred, of adding some "excitement" to these pages in exchange for the money you'll be extorting from us paying honest posters?

73's and all the best,

Chuck
AA1MN

N4AOF · May 14, 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KB7TBT @ May 13 2002,20:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you mention how to make this happen, it is simple..

make the registered users ALL HAMS..

they can make a user base id with you with there call sign, address and any other confermation you need to make sure that only hams post..but have the option to have a "handle" of "joe blow"..

make the info private to your database only.
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How do you suggest he find out if the person really IS a ham? Limiting registration to licensed amateur radio operators has a few drawbacks:

1) There isn't any easy way to do it

2) It doesn't keep out the riff-raff

3) There isn't any easy way to do it

4) It would keep out prospective hams who want to find out more about what the amateur community is like.

and

5) There isn't any easy way to do it.

KE4MOB · May 14, 2002

I think the only solution is to recruit a good, reliable base of moderators. Here's why (my opinion):

A) Restricting membership to only hams is not an option. Besides, I see the point made that some of the worst offenses are committed by hams with callsigns for everyone to see. I really don't see the difference in being flamed by an anonymous poster and flamed by a ham. Either way, it's disrespect. And it shouldn't be tolerated. No matter who the originator. I disagree with you Fred on the idea that "What makes people honest is knowing that they can't hide." Remember the schoolyard bully? He sure didn't hide! He wanted the weakling to know who was in charge.

B) All the wonderful checks suggested so far are (I suspect) way too intensive for Fred to undertake--without major support.

C) And hams are cheap. We all know that. Is $5-$10 a year worth me being able to "shoot my mouth off" on this site? Probably not. Quite frankly, I don't think what I have to say is worth it. I can go out an yell at a tree and it will have about as much consequence in the grand scheme of things.

In essence, this is like a two meter repeater dispute. On the one hand is an individual who is willing to volunteer time and effort to put in place something for the greater good. On the other is a cross section of humanity who use the service--some good, some bad. Do we close the repeater, or just police the users a little more closely? I think the FCC rules provide the answer.

Steve, KE4MOB

K2UL · May 14, 2002

I continue to be amazed at the number of paranoid Americans who don't understand the difference between personal privacy and public privacy. Posting an anonymous message on the board is like walking into a large shopping mall and expecting to be invisible. If you want total privacy, stay away from shopping malls and public web sites.

I don't support the idea of paid membership after seeing what happened when Classmates.com required paid membership for message posting - messages fell to zero. OTOH, the idea of moderated versus unmoderated message boards is a good one, except for the volume of messages that may need to be moderated. Perhaps it can be automated, dunno. Compromise: only allow messages from registered users. See if that helps. If not, then try something else. It may take several steps to jump from problem to solution.

de K2UL

K2WH · May 14, 2002

Maybe I'm naieve but, I have never seen a reason to hide ones identity. Even as a CB'er back 30 years ago, I just used my first name Bill. When the internet started I used Bill. What is the psychology behind this identity thing? Anyone know?

Other than that, Fred, I love QRZ. It is my home page. I say charge whatever you like to fix the problem and get rid of the ilk for good.

Ever notice how the anomynous posters all seem to have a chip on their shoulder. Confrontational and will almost never conform to the generally accepted ways of behaviour and beliefs.

Anonymous Postings Draw Negative Consensus

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