Path losses between 2m stations in mountainous, thinly-populated Vermont can easily be on the order of 150 dB. We have to get far beyond "visible horizon plus a bit" to engage in these QSOs. In one of my recent 2m FM simplex contacts, the other station was running 170 watts to a beam. I didn't have my amp on, so I was running 50 watts to a beam. Both beams are vertical. We made the contact with about S1 on my meter, but it was very weak. On the same path, running 50 watts SSB to horizontal beans is armchair copy without moving the meter.