Military experts say radio amateurs "highly knowledgeable asset in HF communication"

I know several EE at work who can design any circuit but they can't solder for sh1t!

 

John:

You said:

"To rephrase a quote from a top US officer, over dependence on bandwidth "makes us dumber" (the military). An integral part of the retro HF effort is reorder military comm priorities, not become paralyzed as just spectrum demanding "Nintendo Generals" & "Powerpoint Rangers"."

Ah.... no. Looks like you've never really worked in or for the armed forces. They have defense in depth with multiple layers of communications from high bandwidth commercial to extremely protected. And they have detailed protocols to use whenever those assets are challenged or compromised. I've NEVER known ANY officer to turn down communications capability. And I know quite a few.

You said:

"Employees with just an engineering degree are a dime a dozen. Ask any hiring exec today and they will often say the FIT of a prospect into an org is more important."

Reality is quite different. Electrical engineers, especially those with a background in digital design, decent grades and decent hygene, are commanding six figure salaries right out of school. So, if you know any good ones, please send them my way. I'm interviewing and have actually brought in a ham or two. Supply is tight right now and many firms are paying bounties for internal referrals. Just check LinkedIn. If you have a degree from an accredited university and decent skills, you should be able to walk right into Honeywell out your way and land a job. Immediately. I've been an engineer for more than three decades and have never wanted for work. My biggest problem is retirement - hard to do with so much demand and so much fun work to do.

You said:

"My first job as an engineer had nothing to do with radio. However the principle person hiring, my boss, was a radio amateur. This came up during the interview as something else we had in common. It was one of the best jobs of my life."

Excellent! What kind of engineering did you do and where did you go to school to learn the basics of the profession?

You said:

"Amateur radio can play important roles in life. Radio amateurs can be experts & effective people. Try appreciating some of them. 73, John, WØPV"

I do. All three of the clubs I belong to are heavily populated by comms engineers. Young, old and middle age. We have fun. And the ones who are not engineers, we treat with respect and help, as long as they do the same.

But the vast majority of hams are NOT comms experts of any sort. They don't have to be, to enjoy the hobby and be good people. Stepping into a military or disaster relief role will be problematic for most. But not all.

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN

 

Not too much hand soldering in high tech manufacturing and even bread/brassboarding. Mostly in custom wire harnesses. So it's really an assembler or technician skill these days.

 

Brian,

It's easy finding examples refuting any notion that an Amateur Radio interest does nothing to enhance a candidates professional credibility in what has become the difficult to fill niche of analog / RF design. (the broader OP topic) Click bold blue link below.

73, John, WØPV

Staff RF Systems Engineer - HF Radio Communications

Raytheon Technologies Melbourne, FL
Posted: October 28, 2020

Preferred Qualifications:

1) HF Ham Radio enthusiast

 

Hi John:

Good work! You found one of the rare ones where being a ham is a plus. Raytheon just merged with Rockwell Collins/UTC, and if there is anywhere to find some amateur radio roots, that's the place. And it's ONE instance out of tens of thousands posted. Nonetheless, to quote the posting: "...This position requires a Bachelor's degree in the appropriate discipline and 7 years of relevant experience or an Advanced degree in the appropriate discipline...". In the plusses part of the listing it says: "HF ham radio enthusiast", ATE experience, software defined radio design, and a host of other things. In other words, it's a footnote.

You can try and apply to this position without a degree (and I encourage you to do so), and you may even succeed, if you are very, very good. But it will be an uphill battle. I've worked with a few non-degreed engineers in my career - very few, though. It's a big handicap and their growth opportunities were severely limited.

What I said previously was: "Mmmm. Well. That and an engineering degree and some practical experience will land you a decent income. An amateur radio license? Not so much."

You've made my point. Exactly. Because that's what the job posting says. It did NOT say: "Seeking a Radio Amateur and a degree in engineering would be nice."

Amateur radio is ... AMATEUR radio. Its. A. Hobby. You may be a professional engineer, Nobel laureate, Captain Midnight, technician, insurance agent, pastor, realtor, high school student, senator, newsman or dropout. It's open to everybody and is primarily ENTERTAINMENT. Not a profession. Not something most people can make a living at. Hobby's and professions should not be confused - one is paid for, one pays YOU. Not knowing this can lead to some major life(style) disappointments.

Amateur radio CAN be useful to help coordinate events and ensure safety of races - on a VOLUNTEER basis. By definition, not paid. Amateur HF, VHF and UHF equipment CAN be useful in times of emergency, and occasionally has been. Police departments sometimes have programs to train civilians to use VHF/UHF equipment and promote licensing, to be used in case of local emergencies as an auxiliary. All good. MARS has helped for years to provide civilian connectivity to boots on the ground. All good. But pretty much made obsolete by wideband global satcom, commercial and government. It is, after all, the 21st century. None of this is professional.

Just try walking into a FEMA center in the middle of a disaster and say: "Hey! I'm a ham! I'll be taking charge!" You'll be ejected at light speed by some very humorless individuals. But if you tactfully find a FEMA coordinator and offer to help organize hams as an auxiliary, you MIGHT be taken up on your offer, as long as you don't get in the way and show some positive results.

Being a ham is great! But it does NOT make you a communications professional, which is a frequent delusion.

Brian - K6BRN

 

I don't usually hit this site for humor but dang that was good, coffee through nose, soaked keyboard etc...

I'm new to the hobby but somehow I always figured the military would do their own thing, and hams would be there an hour later to swap qsl cards with whomever won, criticize technique etc.

 

Hi Brian,

Nice try! Spinning distracting & silly cynicism online is popular, but those moves gain little rational traction in this discussion because they obviously deliberately ignore the facts of the OP, ie, sources of expert knowledge in HF radio fundamentals.

Neither the OP nor I ever made claims for amateur radio, or being licensed as a ham, in the manner you portrayed, ie, as an entry level professional qualification.

Although it might certainly be the inspiration and starting point for many professionals. The ARRL would agree and as such promotes that, see below.

The point has always been that with all other things being equal, academic education, professional experience, grooming habits , amateur radio experience is an important distinguishing factor. When an expert is needed for leadership, advice or employed to work with HF radio, the preferred resource, per large employers that need them, including the DoD, coincidentally has a background in amateur radio.

Always has been, always will be. There just are no better sources. (IMO)

Similar parallels occur in other fields as well.

73, John, WØPV

Careers and Amateur Radio

Hands-on learning with Amateur Radio can develop the skills and interests that lead to professional career choices.

Based on knowledge of electronics/antennas/radio propagation

Consumer Electronics
audio technician (for theaters/aircraft/home)
sound system design
TV and sound system install/service
Space Exploration
satellite/spacecraft design
satellite/spacecraft assembly
satellite/spacecraft monitoring
radio telescope technician or astronomer
Broadcast Radio or Television
technician
weather/communications satellite design or assembly
research into microwave or laser based communication techniques
Medical Fields
x-ray tech
MRI tech
x-ray/MRI machine service
Computer Design/Repair
Cell Phone Systems
tower/network assembly
design
repair

Based on understanding of electro-mechanical systems or sound card based software

software engineer
signal processing technician
cryptographer
robotics
radio trunking systems design/tech

The Electronics Occupations Program at Turlock High School is a comprehensive electronics training program which utilizes Amateur

Radio activities as cornerstones to motivate and give direction to students. Here is a list of possible careers suggested to students:

Areas of Occupational Specialization
Electronic Consumer Products Service
Audio-Video Repairer
Audiovisual-Aids Technician
Audiovisual Equipment Operator
Radio Mechanic
Radio Repairer
Television & Radio Repairer
Video Installer
Video Operator
Video Tape-Recording Engineer
Cable Television Installer
Cable Television Technician
Communications Electronics Technology
Communications Electronics Assembler
Communications Electronics Tester
Marine Radio Installer Servicer
Radio Mechanic
Computer Servicing Technology
Data Processing Mechanic
Computer Electronics Technician
Computer Service Technician
Avionics Technology
General Aviation-Avionics Technician
Telephony Technology
Telephone Repairer/Installer
Instrument Repairer
Assembler
Station Installer & Repairer
Equipment Installer
Electrical/Electrician
Electrician Apprentice
Electrician Helper
Airport Electrician
Neon Sign Servicer
Electrician
Electrical Appliance Servicer
Household Appliance Installer
Electrical Repairer
Security Alarm Installer
Electronic Consumer Products Service Categories
DC Circuits
AC Circuits
Solid State Devices
Analog Circuits
Digital Devices
Microprocessor Technology
Lab Practices

Topics within Amateur Radio that are useful to telecommunications careers:

DC Circuits
AC Circuits
Solid State Devices
Analog Circuits
Digital Devices
Microprocessor Technology
Lab Practices
Technical Recording & Reporting

 

Hi John:

I'd never discourage any young person from becoming a ham. It's a GREAT way to explore and build a passion for technology early on that can lead to an education and work in communications, control and other fields.

But I WOULD point out, as I did to you previously, that BEING a ham is NOT a profession. It will not earn you a livelihood. And It's NOT much of a discriminator when hiring for the vast majority of engineering positions, no matter what you'd like to think.

I've been a hiring manager. I've been an executive of one of the largest comms corporations on the planet. I've hired many, many people - not all engineers. And while being a ham is an interesting footnote, it never got anyone hired.

Have a good evening,

Brian - K6BRN

 

Happy Halloween Brian,

Being a ham is not a profession (duh); but glad to see even you agree it CAN be a discrimator when hiring, in SOME cases. Neither the OP nor I ever claimed it was anything else.

That statement contradicts and makes the following one, "being a ham ... never got anyone hired", somewhat disingenuous. In a fundamental sense, becoming a ham got YOU hired!

In your own words above it's obvious how the passion was created that led to a wonderful career, further clarified as being "introduced to Amateur Radio in the 1970's at the Talcott Mountain Science Center in Avon, CT, where I built my first HF receiver. etc etc etc ..."

Participation in amateur radio, especially, as you said, early on, begins the DEVELOPMENT and success of many high performing professionals. An underlying keystone that leads to LIFELONG personal growth and even if it goes undocumented, unrecognized or downplayed (even by the ham), or overshadowed by layers of other accomplishments and credentials building upon it, eventually indirectly results in them being hired.

It seems especially true these days in regard to finding experts in HF radio to help counter overdependence upon highly vulnerable SATCOM.

Have a great All Saints Day!

73, John, WØPV

 

Hi John:

Late night! You said that (I said): "being a ham ... never got anyone hired", (is) somewhat disingenuous. In a fundamental sense, becoming a ham got YOU hired!" Yes. Not at my company. Not in my organizations. Before I retired. The first time. But plenty of hams there, anyway, including me.

And ... "becoming a ham got YOU hired!" No, not really. You have that backwards. My passion for anything mechanical, electrical and hydraulic came way before ham radio. I was building private wired comm systems between friends homes in my neighborhood by the time I was in 5th grade and walking demo projects like it through my elementary school. Remote sensors, simple logic systems, generators and radios built out of any junk I could lay my hands on. Then I experimented with simple short range optical transceivers. And when CB came along, I had fun with that. I'd pick up any thrown-out motor, pump. engine - you name it, and play with it. Then came TMSC - It was fun and did get me into ham radio building my first HEATHKIT. Imagine that - all the parts included, WITH instructions. THAT was new! In fact, it was an early government funded STEM effort for kids who showed promise.

But the question you're asking is: "Can ham radio inspire kids to become technology professionals?" And per my answer above in a previous post, "It's a GREAT way to explore and build a passion for technology early on that can lead to an education and work in communications, control and other fields." So we agree on that.

TMSC is still there and still has an amateur station set up, BTW. This is GOOD. But it's got very stiff competition from robotics projects. The kids really seem to like "Robot Wars". (I've been a guest speaker at TSMC).

I was thinking of funding a "Bolo Continetal Siege Unit" project there, Keith Laumer style, just to see what happened!

Regarding vulnerable SatCom communications - they're actually LESS vulnerable than, say, an underwater fiber optic cable. The world is driven by broadband comms and GPS. And IF and when another world war comes, because that's what will result from wholesale satcom/fiber/GPS (and similar systems) destruction, then traditional HF is unlikely to save the day. It might provide some intermittent low-bandwidth communications, particularly to ships at sea. But it's also a dead givaway and standard HF transmissions pretty much say: "I'm right here - come destroy me." It's been that way since WWII. There are much, much better modes than that, today.

Brian - K6BRN

 

Brian,

All your earlier background in other stuff is great, most of us have similar, but amateur radio is still an obvious commitment that amplified and boosted the launch into a specialized career in communications tech.

Battle Bots indeed has now attracted the spotlight for some, not a bad thing either. I'm a collegue and friend of the mentor of a former championship HS team. (Team 666 Robotics)

The rest of that last reply has nothing to do with the primary military premise in the OP, asymetrical or regional conflicts, where the vulnerabilities of SATCOM and "other modes" have been amply demonstrated recently by adversaries, to the point where the US DoD is seeking alternatives.

In addition the repeatedly promoted anti-ham / HF POV is better understood coming from a business marketing and financial angle. Any HF radio renaissance threatens other comm project funding.

For that reason I can empathize with being so willing to cast shade on amateur radio expertise and foster naive / negative propaganda regarding past and future HF radio military applications. Not the first nor probably the last time a ham wrongly throws amateur radio under-the-bus to protect their turf.

Going "all in" on forces being operationally over-reliant on broadband applications and their insecure infrastructure is a big gamble that I am glad the US military is getting concerned about and taking action.

Stay safe, 73, John, WØPV, Over & out.

 

John:

Nobody is "Throwing amateur radio under the bus.". It's a fun hobby than can sometimes provide a public service on a volunteer basis. It CAN inspire young people, just as robotics contests can. That's the long and short of it.

Regarding milcom on HF, you didn't read my post too carefully. That's pretty much all I'm going to say on the topic. But the simple fact is that frequency enables available bandwidth, and HF simply does not have much bandwidth. It can do a few things, but support modern systems on its own, not so much. It's a niche application that can play an important role, but it will not "carry the day".

Brian - K6BRN

 

Another example of a top shelf international electronics firm that understands and offers to solve the communications dilemmas faced by todays militaries, and has a postive respect for amateur radio and any of their associates that participate in it.

Just ask their well honored chief - Ulrich N1UL. He is QRV daily; seen this afternoon on 17m.

Strategic HF communications – providing reachback in remote operations

"Shortwave communications are a resource that can be setup easily, offer extreme reliability and are highly valued by security authorities and organizations as well as military users all over the world."



Those are HF NVIS skywave beams shown, not SATCOM

 

Man

Xkcd 386 for you

 

Hi John:

I strongly suggest you "ring up" Ulrich and have a conversation with him on this topic. Maybe he'll talk to you. Maybe he won't. Ask him which deployed system he's architected recently and what role they play, exactly. Should be an interesting conversation.

Either way, commercial and government interests won't be dropping SatCom, fiber and point to point high bandwidth comms methods anytime soon in favor of propagation constrained HF.

You could lead the way. And prove your point. Simply drop your cellphone network, cable, satellite (if you have any) and fiber comms services, buy a PACTOR 3+ HF modem (or any other HF modem you desire) and do a podcast about what you find. If, after a year, you've done the podcast and shown HF is more reliable and at least adequate for the daily comms services we rely on (internet, phone, video), I'll certainly concede the point. Good luck with that.

But you're going to have to do some work yourself, rather than picking up a comment here and there from various personalities on the web to string together a disjointed dialog on something you know very, very little about to make a point that seems just a little silly. (Well, a LOT silly).

I'm not guessing, John. This is what I do and have done for over three decades. And it's not limited to Satcom. So attacking that particular medium to make this personal is pretty humorous from my perspective.

All comms has a place in commercial and government services, including HF. That's pretty plain from a REAL band plan that covers all of these allocations, not just the slivers granted to hams for use. But the role it plays is limited to niches by the small amount of bandwidth HF supports. That's pretty basic. And if and when we get to the point that HF is the key remaining comms mode for government, commercial or civil use, we'll be looking at an apocalyptic situation where the point will be moot. I think this is the third time I've pointed this out to you.

Perhaps you're hoping for a "Carrington Event"? Good luck with that, too. Many more pressing matters to obsess over at the moment.

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN