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National society acts over Smart Meter interference

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by G4TUT/SK2022, Feb 20, 2020.

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  1. K4RGN

    K4RGN Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Largely true in North America, but some meters use the AT&T, Verizon, or T-Mobile/Sprint mobile networks. You may see more of that as NB-IoT is deployed. Note that the 900 meters can use 900-928 (typically mesh networks) or 928-960 (typically point-to-multipoint networks). There are also a relatively small number of meters doing mesh at 2.4 but you're more likely to see those overseas.

    Outside North America, meters operate in many bands... in some cases as low as 410-430. Actually that's an ideal frequency when meters are in basements, as they are in many countries.

    Not necessarily true for low-end smart meters. I've seen some really noisy ones from China, India, etc. The U.S. utilities are reluctant to use them, but they've won market share in many other countries.
     
  2. AI5DH

    AI5DH Ham Member

    I agree and I probable should have said UHF rather than 900 Mhz. Slip of the tongue because I am currently working jointly with a utility using 900 Mhz CDMA bands. Outside the USA carriers use frequencies as low as 400 Mhz in cellular bands which has a significant range advantage in rural areas. The whole point is it is far removed from HF.

    Still would like to know why they use HF as transport which appears to be the part that is causing interference.
     
  3. W5JON

    W5JON Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    My original post says:
    "HOWEVER the "Concentrators" made by Corinex BPL (Canada), that the Smart Meters sent their readings to, continuously send those reading back to the "Main Office" via BPL on 2 to 12Mhz, with an S9+20 data QRM totally wiping out 80 - 30 Meters. Andy N2NT (V47T) and I W5JON (V47JA) last year filed formal complains with the ST Kitts NTRC (their FCC), and on October 7, 2019 the NTRC issued a "Cease and Desist Order" against St Kitts Electricity Company (SKELEC) to "immediately" shut down ALL the Concentrators. Two weeks later SKELEC shut down the local ILLEGAL and, UNAUTHORISED Concentrators near Andy (about 3 miles from my QTH) and near me, so we have been FREE OF ANY BPL QRM since then. But they have been stalling everywhere else on St Kitts."

    So I have been free of any BPL QRM since about October 20, 2019 as SKELEC complied with the October 7, 2019, NTRC issued "Cease and Desist Order" against them and shut down the Concentrators near my QTH and also near Andy's QTH. But they have been stalling everywhere else on St Kitts. So any future "action" by the NTRC or ECTEL, will be to get them to comply on the entire island.

    BTW since the Concentrator in my area was removed, the Meter reading truck has driven down my street to read the meters in the area, the same as it did for the previous
    10 years prior to installing the Concentrators. So since October 20, 2019, I have been a happy camper. Hope this clears things up........ John V47JA
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  4. W5JON

    W5JON Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    The reason SKELEC decided to use HF and not VHF or UHF, Corinex told them that VHF or UHF data transfer would have required external antennas at EVERY data site, to send the collected Meter Data to the "Main Office". So SKELEC wanting to save a "lot" on the system and installation cost, went with the HF BPL using the Power Lines as their antenna on HF. Their BIG mistake was not getting the St Kitts Federal Government Authorization to use those HF frequencies from the NTRC.
     
  5. AI5DH

    AI5DH Ham Member

    Thank you sir. Antennas at every collection site is a lot less expensive than a meter reader in a truck. In the USA meter readers are 8-Track Tapes and those jobs eliminated along with dog bite law suits.
     
  6. N0TZU

    N0TZU Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    Yes, here the BPL was going to be allowed with modification to CFR 47 Part 15 unintentional radiator rules. Apparently the St. Kitts regulator has different views.

    I take your point about the individual solar equipment being certified to the EMC rules but not the aggregate of a large number in a single installation.

    So far, from casual comments here and elsewhere about commercial installations, it seems that if the solar plant uses quality inverters then there isn’t a significant problem to amateurs but if cheap unfiltered regulators are used then it’s a different story. The worst offenders being residential, of course.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  7. N0TZU

    N0TZU Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    The meters operate in a mesh network so I would think that if a concentrating antenna for V/U was necessary, only one per a group of meter would have been needed.
     
  8. SM0AOM

    SM0AOM Ham Member QRZ Page

    The "last word" in this has most likely not been said yet.

    As there is some serious money involved in electric utility operations, it is very likely that the matter will reach the courts, and to the highest levels.

    Assuming a reasonably independent continuation of the British legal system, the actual formulations in the local equivalent of the Wireless Telegraphy Act will be the centre of argumentation by the lawyers.

    My prediction is that the utility company will argue along these lines, as has been done in other cases:
    • Are the BPL equipment radio transmitters in the sense of the law? - No
    • Are there any emissions on locally or regionally used frequencies protected by international law? - No
    • Are any otherwise protected spectrum users interfered with? - No
    • Are any paying users interfered with? - No
    • Are radio amateurs important in any other eyes than their own? - No
    • Should radio amateurs expect interference-free frequencies? - No
    73/
    Karl-Arne
    SM0AOM
     
  9. K4RGN

    K4RGN Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Which, of course, is utter nonsense. Every vendor of radio-based AMI, no matter what the radio technology and what the frequency, designs an antenna internal to the smart meter. I'm quite confident that any of the radio-based AMI systems could reach 99% of meters on the island with no difficulty whatsoever. If SKELEC bought this argument, they should be ashamed. By the way, the electric meter at my QTH has an internal antenna and uses a popular 900-928 mesh product.
     
    N0TZU likes this.
  10. W5JON

    W5JON Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    Karl,

    You are incorrect on ALL counts, SKELEC has said they will comply with the "Cease and Desist", it is only a question of when they will fully comply.

    Also, your points are interesting, however they miss the big details:
    Does ECTEL have regulation and authorization authority in the Eastern Caribbean: YES
    Does the St Kitts Government NTRC have regulation and authorization authority on St Kitts: YES
     
    N0TZU likes this.
  11. N0TZU

    N0TZU Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    My rural electric Co-Op went to a mesh AMI years ago. It works fine, no interference to my station whatsoever, and I've looked for it. On average, there are only ten members per mile of distribution line, yet there are no external antennas that I've ever seen anywhere around here, except at substations. I suppose there is some additional radio or PLC communications in the more rugged sparsely populated areas with no cell service.
     
  12. AF4RK

    AF4RK Ham Member QRZ Page

    I never bother with those forms and i got warranty service simply by producing the receipt.
    af4rk
     
  13. N8LU

    N8LU Ham Member QRZ Page

    I have had a smart meter for over 5 years with no problems. In fact I have 2 smart meters; one for the electric meter and one for reading the gas meter. No detectable difficulties have been noticed with either unit.
     
  14. MW1CFN

    MW1CFN Ham Member QRZ Page

    What's the point of that comment? It's not like the society has taken action for no good reason. And anyway, unlike appliance wall warts, you have no choice over equipmet selection with an electric company's apparatus.
     
  15. KC9YGN

    KC9YGN Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    we got an LG dishwasher recently and the info the warranty registration wanted was ridiculous. We didn't fill it out a lot of the info they wanted either. Whether they will still honor the warranty or not remains to be seen. Even more curious was we found out only after we bought it is that the bloody thing is WiFi enabled. Why the hell does a dish washer need to have wifi? Needless to say we didn't set that up either.
     

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