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The Case for Mars - The Mars Society - KA9JSV

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by KA9JSV, Oct 17, 2016.

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  1. KA9JSV

    KA9JSV Ham Member QRZ Page

    I was inspired by Radius Production's The Mars Underground, from 2011.
    ( )

    Seeing their Analog "practice' Stations - University & Special Interest Groups
    stay there as a 2 week simulation, going through the movements, etc.

    Digging deeper I noticed they were practicing isolation more than communicating.
    They do simulate that Time-Delay and post reports on the facebook.... which is nice.
    Other experiments involved using Wi-Fi in close proximity for a weather station and Rover.

    I've conveyed to them the importance of remote telemetry at greater distances in
    harsh conditions and hopefully approach more real-time ops, rather than depend on
    the quick-n-easy smart phones with power apps and straining for broadband coverage.

    I'd implored them to have at least two of the six Crew members, licensed hams.
    And to make use local low-power packeting for Health Monitoring, and Power Plant levels.
    To Track satellites and simulate Supply Ship arrival & departures.
    Also, to retro-fit a Rover with Ground Penetrating Radar for sub-surface imaging.

    Hams and Makerspaces could possibly benefit with local projects than can be tested at the habitats.
    This involves those who are fascinated in the space industry.
    We see the same thing with AmSat embracing many groups, making Cube-Sats.

    The Mars Society maintains itself as non-for-profit.
    They commiserate with aerospace and astrophysical groups, including Ames Research.
    Their knowledge of radio and telemetry is limited, compared to Radio Amateurs.

    My message was also to ask others to participate and / or donate time, devices or plans
    to build sensors & interfaces. Involving Makerspaces helps reduce costs and gets noticed.

    Hope this helps.. and thank you for your attention.
    Dave KA9JSV
     
  2. W8BFT

    W8BFT Ham Member QRZ Page

    I am constantly amazed by how people will skim a proposal, take a few words out of context and go off on a rant about how it can't be done, is illegal, etc., etc.

    Certainly, NASA has access to frequency spectrum to do any of this in their own development experiments. Off the planet, radio communications, telemetry, etc. will be governed by international treaties and agreements until there are enough individuals who no longer consider themselves citizens of any country on earth--or, indeed, of the Earth at all. Then it's the wild west.

    However, the Mars Society is not NASA, is not government, is not a business, and is physically in North America. There's absolutely no reason appropriately licensed individuals couldn't simulate a Mars-like communications environment using Amateur radio.

    Certainly the utility and practicality of this proposal is up for debate (I can think of several problems), but NOT the legality or availability of technology. The Mars Society is an amateur endeavor, and amateur radio certainly could play a role.
     
  3. KO5AOK

    KO5AOK Ham Member QRZ Page

    These points were most interesting to me.

    "Imagine how radio-quiet those first humans will find MARS to be.
    It will be like listening to the ether like Marconi first heard it on Earth a century ago, but without
    all the static and noise of lightening and thunderstorms.
    Maybe there are new noise sources on Mars or propagation possibilities as yet unexplored on Mars."

    How wonderful it would be to have such a noise free environment, unlike what neighborhoods provide us now. My neighbor turns on her TV and my 20m band is filled with tones galore.

    Mars is still a long way off though, with the state NASA and others in the space biz here in the US. We now depend on Russia to get our astronauts to the ISS, while China, just this week, has placed two men inside their Tiangong-2 space lab. This is the second venture to a space lab for them.
    But, WE can still get cargo to the ISS, sometimes. And they are in the planning process to get people up there, again, as well as the continuation of cargo flights.
    Mars is a dream right now, with a prayer that it will become a reality some day.
    KG0UFO, 73
     
  4. W1YW

    W1YW Ham Member QRZ Page

    Hardly noise free. Moving ferric dust causes plenty of noise.
     
  5. KA0HCP

    KA0HCP XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    Untrue. The Mars Society is an organization with a purpose. Probably a state corporation with federal 501C3 status. They may not use amateur radio to conduct the business of the corporation including space simulations. The FCC has other services that are appropriate.

    It is never inappropriate to discuss the matters the OP has posted.
     
  6. KA0HCP

    KA0HCP XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    The original post was a bit sentimental and included an admixture of not quite appropriate ideas and parts.

    BETTER DISCUSSION POINTS:
    -What methods, frequencies, equipment are best for amateur Mars-Earth communications, and Mars Point-Point communications?

    Keeping in mind that we are two decades away from any human mission attempt. Certainly amateur operations from Mars will be even further in the future.

    Hams interested in familiarizing themselves with equipment and methods which might be associated with Mars operations should involve the following:

    *EME with respect to
    -High power
    -UHF+
    -Weak signal reception
    -Various software controls and decoding
    -High gain antennas
    -Antenna feeds, multiple signal feeds, preamps, sequencing

    *Satellite Operations
    -UHF+
    -Antenna pointing software,
    -Precision antenna pointing
    -Antenna feed and sequencing
    -Weak signals

    *Microwave terrestrial operations
    -SHF+
    -Block amplifiers, block processing
    -High gain antennas, SHF feed types
    -Precision antenna pointing
    -Weak signals
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  7. KA0HCP

    KA0HCP XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    Reality check. With a two decade horizon (minimum) keep in mind this:

    -Hams over 50 years of age today are unlikely to hear any Mars signals. We will be in our 70's and in our waning years.

    -The hams or prospective hams who become astronauts on Mars are under 20 years of age today.
     
  8. NN4RH

    NN4RH Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    When I was a young boy in the 1960s, a neighbor friend and I would curl up in cardboard boxes with hand drawn control panels, and talk to each other on toy walkie_talkies, pretending we were Gemini astronauts.

    I guess this ham radio Mars project is basically the same sort of game.
     
    KA0HCP and WR2E like this.
  9. W1YW

    W1YW Ham Member QRZ Page

    :)
     
  10. KW0U

    KW0U Ham Member QRZ Page

  11. W8BFT

    W8BFT Ham Member QRZ Page

    I disagree. Mars Society is a non-profit registered under the tax code (specifically 509(a)(2) ) purely to avoid paying income taxes. That's irrelevant to the prohibition of "Communications for hire or for material compensation" in Part 97.113(a)(2). The Society provides facilities that selected volunteer crews use to conduct simulations. Therefore any communications are not "communications on behalf of an employer", and the operators would certainly have no "pecuniary interest". (97.113(a)(3))

    The only sub-paragraph that might conceivably apply is the prohibition on "Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services." (97.113(a)(5)) First, the use of amateur transmitters would be limited to those crews that include at least one licensed amateur. If the Mars Society were to apply that criterion to their crew selection, it would certainly impact the applicant pool. So much for "regular basis". Is it "reasonabl[e]" to put a delay into another radio service to correspond to the distance between Earth and Mars? Not in my opinion.

    For short-range voice and telemetry communications, amateur radio might not be the best solution given the license requirements, but there's nothing in the regulations prohibiting it. As for simulating radio contact with the Earth: sure. No problem. In fact, it's already been done.

    I agree it's never inappropriate to discuss a proposal someone puts up for discussion. But an automatic "you can't do that because of my opinion of a regulation I haven't actually read" isn't usually helpful--indeed it seems more an attempt to shut down discussion than to promote discussion.
     
  12. KA0HCP

    KA0HCP XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    Of course there are several. One is that amateur radio is not to be used when other services are available. The Mars Society can purchase commercial UHF and VHF equipment and obtain licensing for it. There is no reason for them to use the amateur service for their experiments. It is not appropriate.

    The operations of the Mars Society are not of a personal nature and not related to the purposes of the amateur service.
     
  13. W8BFT

    W8BFT Ham Member QRZ Page

    Again, I just read the regulation, and I don't agree. If I'm wrong according to the plain language of a regulation or law, (not inference or interpretation), or an official FCC determination on record, I'm certainly open to learning about it.
    Actually, no. The regulation states that amateur radio is not to be regularly used when other services are reasonably available. {97.113(a)(5)} That leaves the door open for occasional use, or regular use when there's no reasonable alternative. The stated position is akin to arguing I can't use a mobile amateur radio to tell a carpool partner I'm about to arrive at his house to take him to work, because I have a cell phone in my pocket. (Just to be clear, that example would be a completely unreasonable interpretation of the regulation.)
    That's true, in principle, if they have enough budget that isn't committed to higher priority equipment and supplies. And if they have enough volunteer or paid (more budget) labor to adapt commercial equipment to their use. And if a required adaptation is even legal. And if they deem it appropriate to their mission.
    That's pure opinion, and I pretty much completely disagree. Since we don't know what, specifically, they intend to accomplish on any given mission, we have no way to determine whether they might have a reason to use amateur radio. We don't get to tell them what they need.
    The regulatory requirement is not that amateur communications must be of a purely personal nature. It's that the operator must have no pecuniary interest or operate on behalf of an employer. Purely personal use is a subset of that, but that leaves a lot of space for use that's not purely personal. Like using it to perform (without pay) an experiment under the aegis of a non-profit organization.

    This discussion illustrates a basic dichotomy regarding regulations, I think: whether a practice is prohibited by default unless expressly allowed, or is allowed by default unless expressly prohibited. I tend toward the libertarian view.
     
  14. FORRESTWHITE

    FORRESTWHITE QRZ Member

    I know the place which imitates the isolation and simulation of exits in spacesuits - ISS. I didn't catch the idea of spending money on this research while it would be better to send people to actually space.
     
  15. KA9JSV

    KA9JSV Ham Member QRZ Page

    Epilogue of KA9JSV
    With respects to all of you, this posting conveyed a two way query.

    On the one side....
    ..its objective was to ask "what would you do for communications when on Mars" as viewed through the Mars Society..
    Which actually could have been any society on this planet.

    On the other side....
    ..as expected, we received a cacophony of comments expounding the administrative supremacy to
    para quote "regulations", as if to have the upper hand... and thus, be totally devoid of imagination.

    Willing to admit the original posting was not error-free, I did not pretend to achieve perfection.

    Instead, our modern-day non-commercial radio enthusiasts (hams) were more concerned substituting
    the speak easy of corporate dross for progress.

    True, the article needed a bit of kibitzing, I will confess this should have been drawn out further and
    more complete as possible to satisfy the attributes of a successful mission.

    We're Hams and supposed to be better than McGyver and use every means available...
    "... to communicate as if your life depended on it...."

    This includes physically making a device that could physically work here, or on Mars.
    If I weren't limited on funds, there would be no hesitation to make something, anything and
    prove to the community the "effortless integrity" of amateur radio operators.

    It does not take much to imagine you are 140 million kilometers away from this planet.
    While in "that state of mind" continue to imagine how you're going to survive - every 15 seconds at 24/7 intervals.

    Therefore, before you speak, consider the viewpoint of where your space-faring feet are planted.
    David
     

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