G3KMA the RSGB IOTA Committee announced that the QSL cards from C91VM the activity of AF-061 AF-088, AF-072 and AF-066 will not be considered for the diploma program IOTA. The reason is the formal request of the alleged U.S. $ 5 per card. The penalty is strange because this is not a request only a suggestion, and any money collected in this way are to be used for implementing an education program which are subject to mozambijskie children. Grant - for so it should be treated - can be paid directly to the charitable foundation which contradicts zarobkowemu nature of the expedition. In addition to the receipt of 5 (or more) of USD is not a condition of receipt of the card, because the organizers at the same time ensure that other QSL will be sent by normal route or via bureau. RSGB IOTA decision raised a lot of excitement, especially in light of current prices for all diplomas IOTA. In addition, RSGB IOTA do not suggest, and the prices are mandatory. C91VM team ensures that the QSL manager for all the other will also be sent free of charge by the office, the committee IOTA RSBG such a gesture is no more.
I have no problem with a DXpedition requesting funds to support there operation, I do have a problem with someone soliciting funds to support there pet projects.
I agree. A donation request to support a DXpedition is OK. A donation request to support any project unrelated to amateur radio is not OK. It appears to be a very good and noble cause, but it's still not amateur radio.
If this were a U.S. ham it would be a violation of FCC rules, which says you can't use amateur radio for the pecuniary interest of the operator or another party.
I agree. A donation request to support a DXpedition is OK. A donation request to support any project unrelated to amateur radio is not OK. It appears to be a very good and noble cause, but it's still not amateur radio.
If this were a U.S. ham it would be a violation of FCC rules, which says you can't use amateur radio for the pecuniary interest of the operator or another party.
Five lousy bucks to offset costs and to help fund a school in a poor country. How many of your have actually travelled around Africa and seen conditions there?
It's allegedly us Yorkshiremen who have short arms and deep pockets but to be honest I'd be a bit ashamed to show this thread of conversation to a non-Ham. We keep going on about the good that we do in providing disaster communications when it comes to defending the bands from BPL etc (i.e. when it's in OUR interests), but we pass up on the opportunity to help fund a school in Africa. Five lousy bucks.
Five lousy bucks to offset costs and to help fund a school in a poor country. How many of your have actually travelled around Africa and seen conditions there?
It's allegedly us Yorkshiremen who have short arms and deep pockets but to be honest I'd be a bit ashamed to show this thread of conversation to a non-Ham. We keep going on about the good that we do in providing disaster communications when it comes to defending the bands from BPL etc (i.e. when it's in OUR interests), but we pass up on the opportunity to help fund a school in Africa. Five lousy bucks.
I'm not proud of you.
Dave
Dave, I think you and others are missing the point. Sure, no-one had to work the DXpedition. But nor did the DXpedition have to go there. They knew the costs and the score before they went.
Asking for voluntary donations are fine. The problem with charging a compulsory fee is that this practise could encourage creeping commercialization. The next thing, hams in countries with co-operative licensing administrations will be applying for special calls and then charging for the QSLs.
I don't think the RSGB / IOTA had any choice but to act as they did and put a stop to this.
I see both sides to this issue. I think it may be simply poor wording.
IOTA needs to keep the situation from becoming a sourse of income for money hungry Hams. I don't have a rpblem with that.
I also see what appears to be an attempt to raise money for a good cause. I don't have a problem with that.
The DXpeditioneers put an incentive into their QLS process, to raise money for their cause.
IOTA needs to hold the line on the idea of making money from IOTA recognized operations.
I think the DXpeditioneers could have achieved the same thing by "requesting" a donation to their cause but treating all QSL requests the same. It appears this is what IOTA is requesting, a simple wording to prevent the appearance of "money making".
I see both sides to this issue. .....
I hope this comes to a good conclusion.
Absolutely. I take Julian's point about creeping commercialisation (which happened 50 years ago when Hams started buying black box transceivers, BTW) but it still dismays me when people moan about giving $5 toward an expedition that they worked from their comfy chair and/or a worthy cause.
As I alluded earlier, I think we're missing a PR trick on the worthy cause front. If you had to justify to a neutral party why shortwave shouldn't be sold off to commercial interests who'd contribute to the ecomomy a hell of a lot more than we do, how would you do it?
I just think that "XXX school in XXX far-away third-world country, sponsored by radio hams worldwide" puts us in a good light - and it helps someone less fortunate than us.
The arguments about what consitutes cajoling and what constitutes a voluntary donation will no doubt run on and on, and KMA drew his line in a different place to where I'd have drawn mine ... but as far as I have witnessed, amateur radio enthusiasts are about the most skinflint, tight fisted bunch of wallet-cramp-sufferers I've ever met. The times that I've sold on spare components etc at hamfest fleamarkets and met people who were determined to haggle for ten minutes over a few pennies amazed me. And I'm a Yorkshireman who's half Scottish!
The item is much more deep and complicated than just simple $5.
1. With the time being it is forgotten that in the very begining is was obligatory to send QSLs.
2. This not the only one island (expedition, country) and in fact the conversation is not about $5 but about hundreds ans possibly thousand USD.
3. If a person wanted to help poor country to build a scool why didn't he simply send the money spent for future trip to that country? He could sit home. But he didn't
In fact we all like both to work DX and to travel.
Many people need to state themselves somehow.
One of the ways is an expedition.
There would be no problem if a DX-peditioneer would send the cards direct, via the bureau, uploaded log to LoTW asking for a possible donation...but NO...
It turned into a practice to ask money "for speeding up the process".
In the other feilds it called "a corruption".
Even if a DX-peditioneer promises to send QSLs via the bureau or to upload his log to LoTW "in a year" it is a blackmail.
How old are we?
Many people wouldn't survive utill getting the QSLs via the bureau.
That is what DX-peditioneers use - fear.
We don't want to wait.
That is why they pull out money from us.
It is a bad practice.
I can call many modern expeditioneers and managers palying with this - UA4WHX, OK1DOT, VE3LYC. I am sure that this list could be continued.
But at the same time there are the opposite examples - FT5GA.
To my mind it is great that RSGB started to react somehow to these tendentions and I would greet if ARRL would follow it in the address of "countries" not only "islands".
It is in the interests of both RSGB and ARRL as they would loose their profits if such a practice will continue.
Not many people want to pay such a money for a hobby.
One expedition - $5.
Over 1000 islands....About 3000 Chalanges (over 300 countries...)
Multiply
There is no need to discuss this. It is clearly stated in IOTA rules.
I hope DXCC Desk would take a similar step to keep business out of Ham radio.
The final courtesy... If someone can't afford to QSL via the bureau he/she should not make the QSOs. We don't need multipage colour cards, just a confirmation!
I still remember the good old days: if a station had W2CTN as a manager, you could count on receiving the card via the bureau very soon. Today it looks like you cannot enjoy Ham radio without a credit card!
After taking a look at C91VM's QRZ page for the first time, I'm thinking that I sure wouldn't want for this to become the norm in QSLing. We don't want this $5 thing to gain traction. The best way to combat this is to not comply with the request.
Other words come to mind, but outrageous is acceptable in this forum. I applaud RSGBIOTA for their decision, and hope other awards programs follow suit. These guys and others like them need to be put out of business.
In reading over the other comments, I don't understand how someone can actually defend their QSL policy. I'm not surprised, I've heard it before. But anyone who agrees that it's OK to demand more than necessary to return a card is part of the problem. C91VM made the top of my list. http://www.k4hb.com/scheme.html
We appreciate your support.
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