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Thread: New Antenna Tuner Smoked

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  1. #121
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Fredericksburg, Va
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    461

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC8VWM View Post
    No... just in most situations... Kind of like using a band aid.
    One of my antennas is a 135' dipole up 70', fed with ladder line to a MFJ auto-tuner. I can tune anywhere 80-10 meters instantly, with a push of the button. I've had good results with this simple antenna on all bands, and work dx all the time (worked Mongolia last night on 30m from east coast). I don't look at the tuner as being a band-aid at all, rather an asset.
    73 de Steve, N4IAG
    The most important things in life aren't things.

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    Jacuzzi
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    Well hopefully you are not under the mistaken impression that an antenna tuner somehow replaces a properly designed resonate antenna system, because if you should know anything about about antennas, you would know maximized performance is based on properly engineered antenna system design. You will also know antenna tuners are intended as a "patch" or a "bandaid" solution to the isuue when things are not as optimized as they should be..

    Dispute it all you wan't, but a 3 cylinder Geo Metro is not ever going to perform like a 5.0 liter Ford Mustang no matter how much you try to say it does.

    Arguments suggesting that a Geo Metro smokes a Mustang on the street,doesn't somehow change the reality of the matter and working stations in Mongolia doesn't change reality nor does working Greenland for that matter.

    Simply put, antenna tuners are intended to patch up problems with your antenna system. Always have been, and they always will be serving that function in the future.

    Are you suggesting antenna tuners are not serving this function? They are not an "assett", they are merely a "band aid" or a "patch" solution and to suggest otherwise is simply not true.
    Last edited by KC8VWM; 11-18-2012 at 06:41 AM.
    73 de Charles - KC8VWM
    North American QRP CW Club #3159, SKCC# 5752

  3. #123
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Lakewood, WA
    Posts
    2,298

    Default And now for something completely different!

    I like it when folks have a real grasp of black and white, but no appreciation for grey.

    So, if I have dipole the is cut to resonate in a certain band, but the impedance at the feed point is not matched to my feedline or transceiver what can I do?

    In the black and white world, I'm stuck. Can't use the antenna?

    In the grey world, I might use a matching device, whether it is a gamma match, a delta match, or maybe a balun made to transform one impedance to another or what have you.

    In the black and white world I waste time and energy trying to make my antenna impedance match my feedline. In the gray world, which most of us actually live in, we use a suitable matching device to make the entire system not only resonate, but to present a reasonable match to the radio.

    Why does it upset so many folks if the matching device is in the shack instead of at the antenna feed point?

    In a ladder line fed system the VSWR on the line can be very high and the ladder line will still be practically free from loss. Not so with a coax fed system.

    In the case presented above, with a 135 ft dipole fed with ladder line, the antenna is indeed resonate on not just one band but most bands. It will not present the perfect 52 ohm resistance without a "antenna tuner". How exactly does it make it a bad thing if the entire system is "resonate"?

    Especially if by resonate you mean that it is a 50 ohm impedance...

    A dipole in free space is actually closer to 75 ohms than 50. Most Yagi beams are nowhere near 50 ohms either. That's why there are so many different matching systems made for them.

    So what, exactly is meant by a resonate antenna?

    I guess that I will never know... Because I use one of those dratted 80 meter dipoles fed with ladder line my self. Is it a match for a big Yagi up high?

    Well actually it does pretty well against the locals with beams.

    Is it directional?

    Who knows? Probably. But since it is not an exact flat-top probably not so much.

    Can I work the stations out there both local and DX. Yes.

    What more can you ask?

    Oh, and it was dirt cheap, except for the tuner. I have a big herky Nye-Viking. Don't skimp on the tuner.

    I will get around to putting my beam back up... Someday.

    In the meantime, the dipole works FB!

    73 Gary

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    Jacuzzi
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    What do you want to drive in terms of street performance Gary?

    Do you want to compromise on street performance, or do you want to drive the real deal?
    73 de Charles - KC8VWM
    North American QRP CW Club #3159, SKCC# 5752

  5. #125

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC8VWM View Post
    Well hopefully you are not under the mistaken impression that an antenna tuner somehow replaces a properly designed resonate antenna system, because if you should know anything about about antennas, you would know maximized performance is based on properly engineered antenna system design. You will also know antenna tuners are intended as a "patch" or a "bandaid" solution to the isuue when things are not as optimized as they should be..

    Dispute it all you wan't, but a 3 cylinder Geo Metro is not ever going to perform like a 5.0 liter Ford Mustang no matter how much you try to say it does.

    Arguments suggesting that a Geo Metro smokes a Mustang on the street,doesn't somehow change the reality of the matter and working stations in Mongolia doesn't change reality nor does working Greenland for that matter.

    Simply put, antenna tuners are intended to patch up problems with your antenna system. Always have been, and they always will be serving that function in the future.

    Are you suggesting antenna tuners are not serving this function? They are not an "assett", they are merely a "band aid" or a "patch" solution and to suggest otherwise is simply not true.
    Don't make the newbie mistake of believing a resonant antenna to be the end all, be all of a properly designed antenna. A doublet fed with ladder line and coupled with an antenna matching device is a very well engineered "antenna system". This is hardly a band-aid system. Refer to the ARRL antenna book for more information.

  6. #126
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    SanDiego, People's Republic of California FEMA District 9
    Posts
    38,941

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    Quote Originally Posted by KJ3N View Post
    A tuner's got to know its limitations....

    I have been tempted..............
    When it's time, and it may be sooner than you think.

  7. #127
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Lakewood, WA
    Posts
    2,298

    Default Antenna, antenna, antenna

    Quote Originally Posted by KC8VWM View Post
    What do you want to drive in terms of street performance Gary?

    Do you want to compromise on street performance, or do you want to drive the real deal?
    Charles, your question makes no sense.

    What do cars have to do with antennas, except as a poor analogy?

    If I accept your analogy, I prefer to drive a car that gets me from point a to point b with reliability and comfort. I am no longer a young man looking for bleeding edge performance. I don't want or need a sports car that goes fast, looks good, but needs lots of TLC to keep both of those aspects.

    The same thing goes for antennas, again if I accept your premise. I want an antenna that does the job I need it to do without needing a lot of the aforementioned TLC, that won't fall down on me or my neighbors in a wind storm.

    A big dipole, up high, meets these parameters nicely.

    In reality, sure I'd like to have a big antenna farm, but to do that, I'd have to move. I don't want to move, I like it where I am. Because of that as a mature adult, I have to accept the fact that I can't go all out even if I wanted to, just like the sports car fan.

    But I do not worship at the altar of low SWR like so many do. I understand that low SWR is only one of the many parameters that make an antenna a "good one". I've read Maxwells stuff... even though most of it is over my head. I've read the ARRL antenna book cover to cover many times, although not lately.

    I used to use all coax-fed antennas with all of them pruned to the lowest SWR. Then I started making comparisons between them and the humble ladder line fed dipole. In most cases, not all, the ladder line dipole was equal to the coax fed one, and had the added bonus of being usable on other bands.

    That's when I gave up on trying to achieve the magic 1:1 ratio and just got a very good tuner and some ladder line. I've never looked back. These days, I'm getting the experimental bug again, and will probably start putting up more "resonate tuned" antennas for diversity reception if nothing else.

    Does that answer your question?

    73 Gary

    PS: As I mentioned before and others have agreed, a doublet antenna fed with ladder line is still an efficient antenna system.

  8. #128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC8VWM View Post
    Well hopefully you are not under the mistaken impression that an antenna tuner somehow replaces a properly designed resonate antenna system, because if you should know anything about about antennas, you would know maximized performance is based on properly engineered antenna system design. You will also know antenna tuners are intended as a "patch" or a "bandaid" solution to the isuue when things are not as optimized as they should be..
    Sorry, that's just not true. Or rather, the only part which is true is the bit about "properly engineered antenna system". A tuner can be part of such a system.

    What do you mean by "a resonate antenna", anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by KC8VWM View Post
    Dispute it all you wan't, but a 3 cylinder Geo Metro is not ever going to perform like a 5.0 liter Ford Mustang no matter how much you try to say it does.

    Arguments suggesting that a Geo Metro smokes a Mustang on the street,doesn't somehow change the reality of the matter and working stations in Mongolia doesn't change reality nor does working Greenland for that matter.
    That depends on how you define "smokes".

    If you mean top speed and acceleration, of course the Mustang will outperform the Geo.

    But if the test is "which will go farthest on a given amount of fuel" or "which costs the least per mile" the Geo will win. Won't even be close.

    Quote Originally Posted by KC8VWM View Post
    Simply put, antenna tuners are intended to patch up problems with your antenna system. Always have been, and they always will be serving that function in the future.

    Are you suggesting antenna tuners are not serving this function? They are not an "assett", they are merely a "band aid" or a "patch" solution and to suggest otherwise is simply not true.
    Sorry, but you're completely wrong there. Here's proof:

    Suppose a ham has two good supports 200 or so feet apart, suitable for hanging a dipole at 50-60 feet or so. The shack is about halfway between the supports so a center-fed system will work out well.

    The ham wishes to operate on all ham bands from 80 through 10 meters, CW, data and phone, and the ham's rig wants to see a 50 ohm nonreactive antenna system.

    What should the ham put up for an HF antenna system?

    73 de Jim, N2EY

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