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Thread: Why use Teflon wire in HF power toroid ?

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  1. #1

    Default Why use Teflon wire in HF power toroid ?

    I am gathering info and material for my home-brew ATU. The design I am using recommends to use Teflon wire in the autotransformer toroid converting the 50 ohms to 12.5 ohms.
    It uses 14 gauge wire for “high power 1kW” coupler.
    I am going for 100 to 250 W.
    I am trying to find out what would be the advantage of using Teflon, especially when from experience I know it is not that easy to work with and string thru even 2 inch toroid and is relatively hard to find in small quantity.
    The electrical properties may have something to do with it, but I am really not in favor to use “an exotic” part just because it has .01 db less loss than using other insulation.


    Any to the point commentaries are as always appreciated and welcome.

  2. #2

    Default

    The wire provided in my elecraft BL1 balun kit ( for winding the balun) was plain old doorbell wire. "Carol 20awg CL2 sunlight resistent" to be specific. I just pulled it apart to re use the core in another project.

    73 m/4

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AA7EJ
    I am trying to find out what would be the advantage of using Teflon, especially when from experience I know it is not that easy to work with and string thru even 2 inch toroid and is relatively hard to find in small quantity.
    The electrical properties may have something to do with it, but I am really not in favor to use “an exotic” part just because it has .01 db less loss than using other insulation.
    TEFLON (PTFE) insulation or sleeping is often used in BAL-UN and UN-UN construction for legal power limits (and HV) --- and addresses the Clueless Ham issues (destroying cores with excessive power and mismatches that produce HV points).

    I understand the difficulty in finding small qty. of PTFE wire for balun winding.

    I took a "hint" from Bob at Balun Designs.
    He uses Teflon (PTFE) sleeving, specifically --
    Bob constructs his windings with Thermaleze wire inserted in Teflon tubes (PTFE sleeving)
    which provides a breakdown voltage of 10,000 volts.


    Teflon sleeving is easier to acquire from a number of sources.

    http://www.balundesigns.com/servlet/...lun-for/Detail

    http://www.balundesigns.com/servlet/...voltage/Detail

    Mark, AB9LZ is correct that you can used common copper wire (insulation typically rated to 300 V) for QRP power levels and for the Elecraft BL1 kit, up to 150 watts RF.
    Last edited by W9GB; 09-16-2012 at 02:23 AM.
    Nullius in verba

  4. #4

    Default

    The real reason silver plated copper conductors is used in Teflon coated insulation is that teflon requires a high temperature to extrude, the temperature being that high copper would instantly oxidised.... and we should know the advantage of silver plating.

    Dave

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    The little English village of Markyate
    Posts
    928

    Default

    Newark seems to have plenty. I buy mine from its sister site Farnell Electronic Components in the UK.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    The little English village of Markyate
    Posts
    928

    Default

    Or, if you want the stranded stuff from Newark, scroll down the page a bit.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Beautiful Downtown Colorado. (Montrose, SW corner)
    Posts
    29,879

    Default

    I didn't know TFE insulation was used for sleeping. I'm gonna try that.

    TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

  8. #8

    Default

    Thanks for all replies, I do appreciate most of it.
    I am still struggling with QRZ discussions which turns into jokes, sermons or otherwise highjack the thread. Despite being very opinionated I still believe in freedom of speech and opinion, so be it, I live with it.


    The coupler / tuner I am building was published long time ago and is basically LC filter with autotransformer ( 50 to 12.5 Ohms) at the input, not a balun. The design goal was to couple TX to short ( whip type) antennas with minimum adjustments.
    The design calls for using twisted pair and Teflon tape to cover the toroids. It uses stack of toroids. ( Increase power handling capacity of the transformer?) One of the design requirements is to maintain physical positions between the wires to maintain desired characteristic impedance. Since the characteristic impedance depends, besides wire dimensions, on distance between the conductors, the insulation thickness is important.


    BTW. I did try to twist unknown (Aircraft?) stranded wire of 22 gauge and managed to break the outer insulation so the inside brownish tape poked thru.
    After much search I found scrap of 22 gauge “appliance wire “ with TFE insulation. Will try it next.


    As far as what wire size – I need to do some search on how to calculate voltage and current on the output of 100 W TX at resonance, or just put a scope on dummy load with known PA setting on my Ft 857.


    Or maybe there is something like that on the web HI HI HI .


    But I need a refresher course on transformers in general , anyway.
    And not on the type my grand kids play with.


    Cheers Vaclav

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Chatsworth, CA
    Posts
    629

    Default

    For Teflon insulated wire, I go to Apex Electronics.
    It's a BIG surplus place about 30 minutes from
    my QTH. They have pallet racks piled with spools
    ofany size & color of Teflon and almost any other
    wire you want.
    Price is $5.00 per pound plus shipping.
    http://www.apexelectronic.com/

    Their stock is NOT all in their online catalog,
    so give them a call or email with your needs.

    If you are ever in the area, drop in, it's a FUN
    place to poke around in. Don't tell the XYL
    "I'll only be there 20 minutes" because I guarantee
    you will get distracted by all the cool stuff they have there.
    73, Ken AD6KA

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Ash Fork, AZ - 60 miles south of the Grand Canyon, off of Route 66.
    Posts
    830

    Default

    Vaclav,

    Just a little warning on working with Teflon insulated wire. Teflon insulation is very heat resistant and doesn't burn or disfigure when it is being soldered. But Teflon is not resistant to pressure. Too much pressure during winding or bending will cause the Teflon insulation to be displaced (cold flow).

    Years ago, we used Teflon insulated wire for the power to a rack of PC/hand wired boards. The wire was used to connect the +10 volt power and grounds. Each cable cable bundle consisted of 10 - #10 Teflon insulated wires. At one end they were grouped into a very large solder lug and at the other they were distributed across the card rack to the board connectors. We had about 24 of these racks and when QA inspected the harnesses, they found that all of them had cracked and had to be replaced. That kept me busy on a third shift for several weeks.

    We also used a #30 Teflon insulated wire for some board building. The wires were generally routed from chip to chip in the gaps between the chips. To keep everything neat and secure, the wire was bundled at intersections, and during long runs, using waxed nylon lacing string. If you made the tie up too tight, you could easily introduce shorts that were very difficult to find.

    Just take care when using Teflon insulation.

    Martin - K7MEM
    73, Martin, K7MEM
    Ash Fork, AZ
    [URL]http://www.k7mem.com[/URL]

    In my area, it seems that every pickup truck or SUV comes with one or more dogs. It's so common that I can only assume that the dog(s) must come with the vehicle. So logic tells me that, if you want to keep the truck for a long time, go for the multi-dog option. Otherwise, if the dog dies, you have to buy a new truck. I have five dogs (4 dogs as of 4/4/2013, RIP Katie), so I'm set for a few years.

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