I highly recommend people DO NOT use "whips" such as AL-800's, Smiley extended ducks, etc to attempt satellite contacts. It is a poor performer and presents many challenges to a new satellite user. I can cite many examples through recordings of people trying to get in using a whip and are effectively QRM. The fact of the matter is you need a solid copy of the bird, not very likely with a cat whisker or extended whip antenna. Can you use those? Sure. Can you take down a lion with a BB gun? Sure....but I wouldn't want to try.
So you ARE really saying that only those with medium power and a superior antenna are the only ones that should be working the birds, and anyone else shouldn't be allowed to even try? IMHO, that's not "Good Amateur Practice." We are supposed to use common sense, and make contacts and they sign off, yet there are high power stations that seem to think it's OK to ragchew throughout an entire LEO FM bird pass, preventing others from making a satellite contact.
So you ARE really saying that only those with medium power and a superior antenna are the only ones that should be working the birds, and anyone else shouldn't be allowed to even try? IMHO, that's not "Good Amateur Practice." We are supposed to use common sense, and make contacts and they sign off, yet there are high power stations that seem to think it's OK to ragchew throughout an entire LEO FM bird pass, preventing others from making a satellite contact.
Did I say that? No. You are mixing emotion with reason here.
It goes back to what KO4MA said regarding "manners" in another post. Regardless of a station's capability, they should use good practice. I feel using the mediocre whips is as bad a practice as "bird hogging." Standards exist for a reason in many walks of life. Dress codes, speed limits, etc. There are safety reasons why an Interstate highway's minimum speed is 45 miles per hour in some places.
There are standards hunters use to ensure a clean kill -- adequate caliber, for example utilizing a larger bullet to take down larger game.
In ham radio we are all well aware of the need for using "minimum power necessary" but do people realize there is more to that regulation.... "to carry out the desired communications?"
My point is and remains -- whips are mediocre and a poor recommendation for anyone even "attempting" to operate the current satellites. There are many inexpensive and simple options for a new station to try the birds without spending much money.
Should we encourage people to start hunting big game with a .22 long rifle just because that's all they have?
Did I say that? No. You are mixing emotion with reason here.
It goes back to what KO4MA said regarding "manners" in another post. Regardless of a station's capability, they should use good practice. I feel using the mediocre whips is as bad a practice as "bird hogging." Standards exist for a reason in many walks of life. Dress codes, speed limits, etc. There are safety reasons why an Interstate highway's minimum speed is 45 miles per hour in some places.
There are standards hunters use to ensure a clean kill -- adequate caliber, for example utilizing a larger bullet to take down larger game.
In ham radio we are all well aware of the need for using "minimum power necessary" but do people realize there is more to that regulation.... "to carry out the desired communications?"
My point is and remains -- whips are mediocre and a poor recommendation for anyone even "attempting" to operate the current satellites. There are many inexpensive and simple options for a new station to try the birds without spending much money.
Should we encourage people to start hunting big game with a .22 long rifle just because that's all they have?
I understand your argument. but if a H-T with a whip IS able to establish full quieting on a bird, then that's all that is needed FOR THAT PASS, at that time. Certainly, an "arrow" type antenna would be a significant improvement. But many times higher powered stations, often with more substantial antennas will step on the lower powered guys, "just because they can." YES, it all boils down to manners; but if the "bigger guns" are working duplex, or at least listening first, they HAVE to realize there's already a contact in progress. Macht's nicht. They just jump in, or continue to rag chew through an entire pass.
Getting into the Mode J FMs is the easy part. Hearing them is not.
The guys calling CQ, or repeating their call over and over, and not replying to anyone? They do that because they can't hear @#$%. That's OK as a beginner, but many have been led down that path by recommendations from people who really should know better than to set up expectations with a low degree of success.
I understand your argument. but if a H-T with a whip IS able to establish full quieting on a bird, then that's all that is needed FOR THAT PASS, at that time. Certainly, an "arrow" type antenna would be a significant improvement. But many times higher powered stations, often with more substantial antennas will step on the lower powered guys, "just because they can." YES, it all boils down to manners; but if the "bigger guns" are working duplex, or at least listening first, they HAVE to realize there's already a contact in progress. Macht's nicht. They just jump in, or continue to rag chew through an entire pass.
I think we are probably more in agreement than disagreement. Just because someone "can" step on stations and say hello to their friends, they shouldn't. It annoys me, I'll admit.
I do think the extreme portable or newbie needs a shot at a contact just as much as the next guy -- I certainly try to help in those instances. But then there are times the bird is full of people who get on and say "handheld" over and over, expecting to get some kind of "parting of the Red Sea" because they say "handheld."
I hope these kinds of threads don't discourage people from giving satellites a try. It is not always dog-eat-dog on the FM birds.
I think we are probably more in agreement than disagreement. Just because someone "can" step on stations and say hello to their friends, they shouldn't. It annoys me, I'll admit.
I do think the extreme portable or newbie needs a shot at a contact just as much as the next guy -- I certainly try to help in those instances. But then there are times the bird is full of people who get on and say "handheld" over and over, expecting to get some kind of "parting of the Red Sea" because they say "handheld."
I hope these kinds of threads don't discourage people from giving satellites a try. It is not always dog-eat-dog on the FM birds.
While I HAVE made contacts with whip antennas (I use two H-T's when portable) I usually find the whip is sufficient for the uplink, but have a 5 element "cheap Yagi" for the 70 cm downlink. It is certainly better for the downlink than a whip. Obviously, with two separate radios, I can hear if I'm making the uplink properly.
I'd certainly suggest "newbies" start out with something like an "arrow" antenna, it gives them a much better shot, even if they are using only an H-T.
I have a very simple WA5VJB design "cheap yagi" that I built that resembles an arrow antenna. I think the entire thing cost me 20 bucks. It took maybe a night to build. I can stand outside with my HT(s) and work the birds with a couple of watts. I was successful with it on my first or second try and usually can make a QSO (or more) on just about every pass. My best was maybe 6 or 7 qso's on a single pass.
There are some times of the day that are easier than others. I've found that some of the morning or mid-day passes during the week there aren't too many people on. "Prime time" passes in the early evening seem to be the most chaotic. Weekends can be pretty busy also. With work I don't get to be on too many daytime passes but on the occasional day off where I'm home during the week I've found it's relatively less crowded.
I understand your argument. but if a H-T with a whip IS able to establish full quieting on a bird, then that's all that is needed FOR THAT PASS, at that time. Certainly, an "arrow" type antenna would be a significant improvement. But many times higher powered stations, often with more substantial antennas will step on the lower powered guys, "just because they can." YES, it all boils down to manners; but if the "bigger guns" are working duplex, or at least listening first, they HAVE to realize there's already a contact in progress. Macht's nicht. They just jump in, or continue to rag chew through an entire pass.
But the guy working Half Duplex with an HT will never know how well he is getting into the satellite or if at all, with the sole exception of getting a reply. In other words, he can QRM the satellite yelling CQ until he is blue in the face and be nothing more than a LID. harumph.
Basically encouraging beginners to use single HT's is not the most responsible action for our community to do.
But the guy working Half Duplex with an HT will never know how well he is getting into the satellite or if at all, with the sole exception of getting a reply. In other words, he can QRM the satellite yelling CQ until he is blue in the face and be nothing more than a LID. harumph.
Basically encouraging beginners to use single HT's is not the most responsible action for our community to do.
Harumph. SOME H-T's and mobiles DO allow duplex operation, so they CAN monitor the downlink while accessing the uplink.
Originally Posted by W5PFG
