New Ham (General class), need to get On The AIR

[KF7LV]

Hello,
Yep, new ham here....three weeks since passing the Tech & General exams. I have an VHF/UHF HT, although nice...not why I was interested in amateur radio.
I was given a working Kenwood TS-140S transciever, a Kenwood AT-250 Auto Antenna Tuner and a new in the box Butternut HF9V antenna with counterpoise.
Now I just need some help wiith the antenna installation.
Question 1: Ground mount or roof mount? Which is better?
If I go ground mount, since I live in the desert (Tucson, AZ) where the soil has no moisture, I will likely need to place a wire mess just under the ground and go as large an area as I can...which would be at the most a radius of about 20'. Or perhaps the counterpoise would be better instead?
Now if I go roof mount, I could use the counterpoise or I could lay out a wire mesh on the roof as well. (Flat roof). However I doubt that the Housing Association will let me keep it on the roof for very long.

I also have power lines in the air about 50' away from the purposed ground mount location....80' from roof location.

Question 2: I have a 10m dipole that I would like to put on the roof, but was wondering about orientation to the power lines. Would it be better to orientate the diploe at 90 degress to the power lines or would parallel be okay with the 80' distance?

Wouild appreciate any comments or guidance.

Thanks,
Lanny KF7VTL

[WB2WIK]

The Butternut should work pretty well as a ground-mounted vertical as long as it's not too close to the house -- especially if the house siding happens to be stucco, which is a terrible dielectric. A radial system of 16-24 wire radials just beneath (or laying on) the soil, all 20 feet long, will work. Not ideal, but not bad.

The Butternut works pretty well on 10m; I'd try it first before the 10m dipole on the roof.

If you can install a permanent dipole on the roof for 10m, I'd recommend a "rigid" (not wire) dipole, on a mast and a rotator so you can rotate it to aim towards the directions you want to work. If you install a fixed wire dipole, you're stuck with two directions forever and miss everything else. Almost not worth it on that particular band, especially when a rigid dipole is only about 16' long and very easy to make from aluminum tubing and place on a rotator. A rotary dipole also provides the opportunity for you to null out noise, in case the power lines are generating any. A fixed dipole won't let you do that, no matter what direction you install it.

[NZ9Y]

I think you wont see a huge advantage to roof mounting with a countrpoise instead of radials. Radials on elvated verticals must be cut to the right length for each band you want to work and tuneup could be a real pain.

On a ground mount, you just do as many as you can as long as you can, whatever fits. Its actually much easier. Plus, I also found that Mrs. NZ9Y was much more tolerant of a vertical behind the house than one on top for all the neighbors to admire.

[KF7LV]

Ground mounting the antenna is somewhat easier, requires more effort to lay-out the wire mesh and get it just under the ground. And of course the house is stucco. Distance from house will be about 25'. The trade-off is between the house and the elvated power lines and how long of mesh I can put the antenna in the center of.

Roof mouting has a limit on the length of wire mesh i could lay-out, plus the HVAC unit is also up there.

Have not figured-out just how to attach the wire mesh to the aluminum tubing just yet. I would think that I need to have a RF bond here of 2.5 milliohms-dc. First idea is to just use a band type of clamp; still working on ideas though.

As far as the Mrs.....she would rather not see the antenna in her backyard, so roof mounting would be far less visable to her.

[KO6WB]

You need to put it up and get on the air. Ground mounting is best for having access to the antenna so you can tune it or make improvements. You can try different numbers and length of radials and see if that changes anything. It will be difficult to tell the improvement if you do not have a reference to compare to. That can be just about anything as a second antenna. A length of wire that doesn't resonant on any band would be good and you should find that your vertical will be hearing things a simple piece of wire won't pick up at all. Still, it's good to have that reference.
If you're wanting to get the antenna in the clear then yes, the roof would be the place to go. It also will stick out and be noticed quickly. If your area doesn't permit that type of installation you would have to take it down or have to move. Moving is no fun so that means you would have to take it down. That would also alert them that you are an amateur and they would be more sensitive about you putting up any kind of antenna. It's strange what can be brought up to accomplish their goal.
On the ground, radials as short as 10 feet can be very effective. The more the better but most wouldn't notice the difference between 16 to 32 radials so any number greater than that has very little to gain.
Consider yourself a very lucky person to have folks that give you the equipment to get on the air.
Now put it to use and have fun.
73
Gary

P.S. you didn't take the Extra exam? You should have. Even if you didn't pass it didn't cost you anymore except for the time it took to take it. Also welcome to the learning phase of amateur radio and to QRZ, the best amateur site on the web.

[W9GB]

Lanny -

Very active Bencher/Butternut antenna group on Yahoo groups.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Butternut-antennas/

Since this is new to you, I would recommend ground mount (artistic sculpture).
Easier to access antenna and understand performance. Wire mesh?

Roof-mount can be tried later -- it can be challenging (and frustrating for a beginner) --
to get a sufficient radial system.
Urban legends of vertical antennas that operate without radials/counterpoises ...
demonstrate "lack of learning/knowledge".

Common mode RF is an issue with unbalanced vertical antennas ...
clean installation with proper mitigation is key for efficient operation.

w9gb

[WB2WIK]

Be careful of wire mesh unless it's made of copper (or brass, or bronze, etc). Other materials will eventually be eaten away by the contents of the soil. "Chicken wire" type mesh made of aluminum or galvanized steel doesn't last long in contact with the earth.

I'd normally just use a bunch of copper wires. They last a very long time and copper's the second best conductor there is.

[KD5SPX]

The dipole if put at 90 degree angle to power lines will pickup less noise.

kd5spx

[KF7LV]

Ground mount it will be. Yeah the HOA will be after me in short time to take it down anyways and although I like to battle with them...I woudl lose this one.

I know that all comments have made reference to radials....and I understand these.....it is due to the very, very, very dry soil here in the desert that I was thinking that chicken wire / stucco mesh would be required to be put down in as large of a diameter with the HF9V in the center as I could. And the mesh would be galvanized wire but will last quite a few years due to no moisture.

OR should I just used some insulated 12 or 14 AWG wire and put radials in the ground?? Soild or stranded?

Dpole; yes I too was thinking to put at 90° to the power lines to minimize pick-up. The dipole is going on the roof and for now I will be using two buckets of sand to hold supporting PVC pipe at the ends. Feedline will come-off at 90°. I hope to have the dipole about 6' above the flat roof. Easy to put-up and if it does not work....easy to take down.

And finally; yes, I know how lucky I was to have soneone give me this equipment. I should have written his call down as I knew I would forget it...and I have. His name is Sherman, lives in San Tan Valley, Arizona. He is one nice guy....76 yrs old and going strong!

Thanks again for these comments and suggestions....keep them coming.

Oh and yes I did take the Extra Class exam after the General. The VEs talked me into it. Needless to say I did not pass it. There were just too many operating type questions that I just do not know about yet....think I got like a 60% on it.

[KF7LV]

Just a quick update:
I have the 10 meter dipole 5' above the ground out in my back yard. Was able to be heard in Tampa, FL at late morning by several guys running around in their vehicles. Contact was not enough for a conservation though...but it was still nice to get out there.