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Thread: 3-500Z Filament To Grid Shorts, The Other Cause

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  1. #1
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    Aug 2008
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    Default 3-500Z Filament To Grid Shorts, The Other Cause

    One of the members of our weekend group on seventy five meters owns an SB-220, it works well and is lightly modified as he put it. The first weekend in January he had been doing some cleaning had every peace of gear in it's place save for the SB-220. One evening while in QSO while the ampli9fier was sitting idle he gave the amplifier a gentle push back to it's normal resting place and at that moment. BANG!!
    He shut down the amplifier and proceeded to troubleshoot it the next day.
    Besides the fact the grid shut was blown off the board one of the tubes had developed a filament to grid short.

    This brings up the question; how many of those tube failures are caused by moving or even bumping the amplifier while the filaments are hot?

    never know but given the conversations that have been raised on the subject I had to pass this along as just one more data-point in the discussion.

    I've always taken it for granted that you don't move an amplifier with hot directly heated cathode tubes in it and I have always rolled my eyes when I hear of people in the old days running those Heath compact KW amplifiers mobile.
    When it's time, and it may be sooner than you think.

  2. #2
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    Australia
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    Sue, What do you think happened first, the "bang"or the bent filament?

    A 50 ohm 50w ohmite glitch resistor would have saved the tube. A forward biased 6A10 across R3 would have been beneficial along with the usual
    meter diode protection etc etc.

    If you think a hot filament touching the grid during amp movement caused this event, then please tell me what you think caused the big bang?

    I imagine the grid choke and P-supp R are not too healthy either.


    Adrian ... vk4tux

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by VK4TUX View Post
    Sue, What do you think happened first, the "bang"or the bent filament?

    A 50 ohm 50w ohmite glitch resistor would have saved the tube. A forward biased 6A10 across R3 would have been beneficial along with the usual
    meter diode protection etc etc.

    If you think a hot filament touching the grid during amp movement caused this event, then please tell me what you think caused the big bang?

    I imagine the grid choke and P-supp R are not too healthy either.


    Adrian ... vk4tux
    First came the bent filament, the big bang was the grid resistor going up in smoke.
    The amplifier had a Harbach replacement board in it and had the meter protection.
    When it's time, and it may be sooner than you think.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by AF6LJ View Post
    One of the members of our weekend group on seventy five meters owns an SB-220, it works well and is lightly modified as he put it. The first weekend in January he had been doing some cleaning had every peace of gear in it's place save for the SB-220. One evening while in QSO while the ampli9fier was sitting idle he gave the amplifier a gentle push back to it's normal resting place and at that moment. BANG!!
    He shut down the amplifier and proceeded to troubleshoot it the next day.
    Besides the fact the grid shut was blown off the board one of the tubes had developed a filament to grid short.

    This brings up the question; how many of those tube failures are caused by moving or even bumping the amplifier while the filaments are hot?
    I would say none, or nearly none.

    I regularly move hot-filament amplifiers, pick them up and inch or two and drop them, bang on tubes with a long insulated rod, and so on.

    Unless the tube already has an intermittent short or bad weld, nothing bad happens. If it does short, the only thing that happens is the plate current increases to the level of zero bias plate current. Why would anything else happen?

    never know but given the conversations that have been raised on the subject I had to pass this along as just one more data-point in the discussion.

    I've always taken it for granted that you don't move an amplifier with hot directly heated cathode tubes in it and I have always rolled my eyes when I hear of people in the old days running those Heath compact KW amplifiers mobile.
    As someone who regularly has hammered on tubes to locate intermittent shorts, it wouldn't bother me in the least to operate a tube mobile unless it was constant subjected to vibrations of significant magnitude. The filament doesn't get soft, weak, or mushy from being hot.

    Ask him what he had in the amplifier for filter cap size and ESR, and what surge limiting resistor he had.

    I see shorted grid to filaments dozens of times a year, and they never cause a bang. On the other hand an anode to grid discharge, without a suitable fault current limiting resistance, is known to cause damaged grids.

    And naturally this would come down to some thinking an oscillation can cause such an arc. Never mind common sense, that even if we drove the tube with 1000 volts positive on the grid, current could not exceed the emission limitation of the filament unless the tube had gas. :-)

    73 Tom

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AF6LJ View Post
    One of the members of our weekend group on seventy five meters owns an SB-220, it works well and is lightly modified as he put it. The first weekend in January he had been doing some cleaning had every peace of gear in it's place save for the SB-220. One evening while in QSO while the ampli9fier was sitting idle he gave the amplifier a gentle push back to it's normal resting place and at that moment. BANG!!
    He shut down the amplifier and proceeded to troubleshoot it the next day.
    Besides the fact the grid shut was blown off the board one of the tubes had developed a filament to grid short.
     RE: the SB220 :
    1. Was there a glitch-R in the +HV lead - and if so how many Ωs and Joules?
    2. was the shorted tube V2 or V1?
    3. was either grid RFC damaged?
    4. what was the measured resistance of the 47Ω R-supps?
    Would the owner like to have the shorted tube autopsied, photographed, and the JPGs posted? If so, I will pay the postage.

    This brings up the question; how many of those tube failures are caused by moving or even bumping the amplifier while the filaments are hot?
     When Karina A. and I were in the filament straightening business we found that straightening a bent 3-500 filament required 5.85v (1910K) on the filament and 30 to 40-seconds at 11G, so it seems that the force that bends 3-500 filaments is nothing trivial.

    never know but given the conversations that have been raised on the subject I had to pass this along as just one more data-point in the discussion.

    I've always taken it for granted that you don't move an amplifier with hot directly heated cathode tubes in it and I have always rolled my eyes when I hear of people in the old days running those Heath compact KW amplifiers mobile.
     Catwoman: As long as it's not an aerobatic stunt plane mobile there should be no problem since on a bench test I determined that one month operating a 3-500Z horizontal made little change in grid-filament BDV.
    Here's a puzzler: TL-922s have a well deserved reputation for shorting the inboard tube while simultaneously blowing R-supp, collapsing or otherwise damaging the inboard tube's 1A grid RFC, and making a big band - all of which happens when the ZSAC drops to Zero.

    Rich, ag6k


    "Almost nothing is as simple as it first appeard/" -- Mr. Murphy

  6. #6
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    Sue, What would the voltage be across the ~30 ohm grid resistor you think to make it cause the bang heard "going up in smoke". ~2.25 - 5.1v would be the voltage available from the cathode in contact.The amp is near zero biased so plate current increases, not sure if this would effect the IR = E across the grid resistor though? The filament is extremely difficult to bend at emission temperature.

    I have an open 3-500zg that had the glass broken in transit, and I did a check a month back tapping the base hard with cathode lit 5v @ 14amp . The grid was connected to a fluke 87 with record min/max set, there was no voltage recorded between grid and FT CT connection during the test which involved wacking the base mounted in a socket with a small mallet. I also had a Sampo 60mhz scope connected visually looking for spikes with display retain settings. Nothing seen.

    I seems something else happened to your friend besides his moving the amp, which may have initiated the event, but by causing a filament - grid short, I think not..


    Adrian ... vk4tux

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by W8JI View Post
    I would say none, or nearly none.

    I regularly move hot-filament amplifiers, pick them up and inch or two and drop them, bang on tubes with a long insulated rod, and so on.

    Unless the tube already has an intermittent short or bad weld, nothing bad happens. If it does short, the only thing that happens is the plate current increases to the level of zero bias plate current. Why would anything else happen?



    As someone who regularly has hammered on tubes to locate intermittent shorts, it wouldn't bother me in the least to operate a tube mobile unless it was constant subjected to vibrations of significant magnitude. The filament doesn't get soft, weak, or mushy from being hot.

    Ask him what he had in the amplifier for filter cap size and ESR, and what surge limiting resistor he had.

    I see shorted grid to filaments dozens of times a year, and they never cause a bang. On the other hand an anode to grid discharge, without a suitable fault current limiting resistance, is known to cause damaged grids.

    And naturally this would come down to some thinking an oscillation can cause such an arc. Never mind common sense, that even if we drove the tube with 1000 volts positive on the grid, current could not exceed the emission limitation of the filament unless the tube had gas. :-)

    73 Tom
    I can answer some of this....

    The SB-220 in question was stock for the Harbach replacement HV diode board.
    The tubes were original tubes from the early seventies.
    As I remember that board has no provisions for a glitch resistor.

    Next time I talk I will ask him about the filter caps....
    The tubes in question had a lot of hours on them so it wouldn't but out of the relm of possibility for mechanical weakness to be the cause.

    The ham in question has an electronics background...

    So we shall see I'll ask a few more questions and get back to you.

    For the record;
    I've seen RCA conduction UHF power amplifier tuves shaken apart in high power (MST series) Motrack radios. and those tubes are metal ceramic with indirectly heated cathodes.
    When it's time, and it may be sooner than you think.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by AG6K View Post
     RE: the SB220 :
    1. Was there a glitch-R in the +HV lead - and if so how many Ωs and Joules?
    2. was the shorted tube V2 or V1?
    3. was either grid RFC damaged?
    4. what was the measured resistance of the 47Ω R-supps?
    Would the owner like to have the shorted tube autopsied, photographed, and the JPGs posted? If so, I will pay the postage.



     When Karina A. and I were in the filament straightening business we found that straightening a bent 3-500 filament required 5.85v (1910K) on the filament and 30 to 40-seconds at 11G, so it seems that the force that bends 3-500 filaments is nothing trivial.



     Catwoman: As long as it's not an aerobatic stunt plane mobile there should be no problem since on a bench test I determined that one month operating a 3-500Z horizontal made little change in grid-filament BDV.
    • Here's a puzzler: TL-922s have a well deserved reputation for shorting the inboard tube while simultaneously blowing R-supp, collapsing or otherwise damaging the inboard tube's 1A grid RFC, and making a big band - all of which happens when the ZSAC drops to Zero.

    • Rich, ag6k


    "Almost nothing is as simple as it first appeard/" -- Mr. Murphy
    Catwoman
    I love it.

    I'll talk to him about the tube.
    When it's time, and it may be sooner than you think.

  9. #9
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    2,332

    Default ...And its just that easy!

    Well... Speaking only in my semi-official capacity as a routine critter catcher, I can state unequivocally that your friend obviously, "accidentally", unlatched the critter catcher located somewhere in the lower bowel region of his amp, there by loosing the dreaded "banger cat" which then exited the amp at supersonic speed, causing the small "sonic boom" which was heard.

    The sonic boom in turn caused various wires and thingies to become discombobulated and making with the arcky-sparky and flashy-washy which then rendered the amp unfit for use.

    There!

    Simple, no?

    73 Gary

    PS: For the humor impaired:

  10. #10
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    I thought it was because the movement made the amplifier cross the flux lines of the earth, generating a small current that triggered a parasitic.

    This can be cured by positing the amplifier so the front panel width runs north-south, or by contra-winding the suppressors.

    Or perhaps it was because the reflection of his diamond ring diverted a photon into the case, where it hit something in the tube and made it break into uncontrolled oscillation. This is why we should never wear rings when working on live circuits, especially in solar storms.

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