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WWV Discontinuing Operations?

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by AD7I, Aug 13, 2018.

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  1. K9CTB

    K9CTB Ham Member QRZ Page

    Perhaps petitioning Uncle Sugar to keep the dang things operating? Certainly these folks can find other sources of revenue they can use to buy votes ...
     
  2. KD8ZM

    KD8ZM Ham Member QRZ Page

    Unfortunately, the only available viable alternative was far worse.
     
    K8XG and KR3DX like this.
  3. KD8ZM

    KD8ZM Ham Member QRZ Page

    QUESTION: When WWV is cut, does this mean that all of my clocks that auto-synch with WWV will lose their reference point? Or is it only the audio portion of WWV that is being cut from the airwaves? Just curious.
     
  4. VE7PNL

    VE7PNL Ham Member QRZ Page

  5. KD8ZM

    KD8ZM Ham Member QRZ Page

  6. KX4O

    KX4O XML Subscriber QRZ Page

  7. KK5JY

    KK5JY Ham Member QRZ Page

    Remember that there are two different services here.

    One is WWV, which runs on HF and MF frequencies, with a full AM carrier, audio tones, subaudible BCD time encoding, and voice announcements.

    The other is WWVB, which is a combined ASK/PSK digital clock source, that runs on LF at 60kHz. Most of the inexpensive "atomic clocks" that have been manufactured for the last 15 to 20 years are actually WWVB receivers.

    Whether both services or just one of the services is on the chopping block isn't entirely clear from the little published info from NIST.
     
  8. KX4O

    KX4O XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    Your clocks probably sync with the 60 kHz WWVB and yes this probably means these clocks will become un-synched.
    The proposal clearly suggests terminating all transmissions from all three stations (WWV, WWVH and WWVB), but there is hope on the horizon as this slashing of NIST's budget has been rejected by congress. More details here.
     
  9. KV6O

    KV6O Ham Member QRZ Page

    Your clocks sync with WWVB, not WWV, but WWBV is on the chopping block as well.
     
    KX4O likes this.
  10. KX4O

    KX4O XML Subscriber QRZ Page

  11. AE8W

    AE8W Ham Member QRZ Page

    I suspect that technology (h/w & s/w) can figure out how to work around post WWV/B. For those digital modes that benefit from a "precise" time sync, can probably be designed to be adaptable and less need for personal precision. We are hams and destined to be creative.

    I say, "fine, let them disappear and we are on to discovery independant of expensive standards and gps."
    We are hams and supposed to be creative. The greater independance of whatever ... the better.
     
  12. AA5CT

    AA5CT Ham Member QRZ Page

    re: "I suspect that technology (h/w & s/w) can figure out how to work around post WWV/B"

    NO SUBSTITUTE for the ability to run "tests" or perform research of this nature though;

    The video below measures WWV's second "click" (marked by 5 cycles of 1000 Hz tone) against the 1 PPS (pulse per second) output from a GPS carrier-class timing "module" (an old Motorola UT+ GPS receiver). The radio "path" yields a delay of about 5.3 milliseconds to my QTH in this video at the 15 MHz WV frequency. Knowing this value, I can "test" another GPS receiver's 1PPS output to see if is 'working'.

     
    KX4O, KV6O and KQ6XA like this.
  13. AE8W

    AE8W Ham Member QRZ Page

    @WPA I agree with you that there is no substitute for business as usual to do things the usual method.

    But ...

    I have ~$8 gps/glonass plugged into my cheap notebook. Time is automatically maintained to within +/- 20 ms ... and all related kept accurate. Does it need to be that accurate? Admittedly, I do not know. But I am pretty sure not. It is just as it is and for no effort on my part.

    I used to do what you indicate ... 50 years ago. I have been licensed for 53 years. Something less than 10 yrs ago I replaced my "atomic controlled bed side clock" with a new version because of a change in the WWV format standard. To my glee, we survived. On the other hand, it proved that I can live without.
     
  14. AA5CT

    AA5CT Ham Member QRZ Page

    There is also this (below); I don't how many consumer GPS units display time that is 'off' by the amounts this researcher found ... not all GPS receivers act alike, apparently.

    "GPS-derived time baffles NOAA researcher"
    http://www.oceannavigator.com/January-February-2003/GPS-derived-time-baffles-NOAA-researcher/

    Added: This may be of interest to some, too:

    "NIST Special Publication 250-67
    NIST Time and Frequency Radio Stations WWV, WWVH, and WWVB"
    https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GOVPU...VPUB-C13-511e61ddbd62d1cdd99ca3e94e258eff.pdf

    Document discusses time delay of HF signals thru their equipment (pg 133), amongst a whole bunch of other 'stuff' ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  15. KV6O

    KV6O Ham Member QRZ Page

    Well, there are substitutes - multiple GPS receivers that compare against each other is one commonly used. Every one of my communication sites has 2 GPS antennas, feed-lines, receivers, etc. You can even use separate GNSS systems - GLONASS and/or Galileo, for example.

    As hams, WWV is very useful, yes, but in the commercial world it's not used all that much anymore. WWV has too much uncertainly due to fluctuating skywave propagation, WWVB disciplined oscillators were common before GPS timing systems.

    I sure hope they don't go away, but there are alternatives.
     

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